- It is not a full transcript of questions and responses, but is intended as a summary. Timestamps are included against the topics discussed, so that those who wish can listen to the responses in full.
A Little Background
Brad Oberwager
Brad Oberwager is one of the three investors who acquired Linden Lab in 2020, together with J. Randall (Randy) Waterfield and Raj Date. Since the acquisition closed, he has been very hands-on at Linden Lab, working alongside members of the management team, and he has also brought-in long-time business associate Cammy Bergren as the company’s Chief of Staff.
His biography, as supplied by the Lab reads as follows:
Brad Oberwager has spent his entire career in technology and consumer focused companies as an entrepreneur and board member.
Currently, he sits on the board of two public companies, Asure Software (NASDAQ: ASUR) and Better World (NASDAQ: BWACU). He is the chairman of two companies he founded, Jyve and Sundia and is also on the board of TEGSCO (aka AutoReturn). He owned Bare Snacks, acquired by PepsiCo in 2018.
Brad was Vice-chair of YPO International, a global organization of 25,000 CEOs [where he met and became friends with J. Randall Waterfield, another of the Lab’s owners / board member].
Brad received his BS from Georgetown University, his MBA from the Wharton School and lives in San Francisco.
Philip Rosedale
Philip Rosedale earned a Bachelor of Science degree in physics and computer science from the University of California, San Diego, and in 1985 he created a video conferencing product called “FreeVue”, which was ultimately purchased by Real Networks, for whom he went to work, rising to the positions vice president and chief technology officer.
Departing Real Networks at the end of the 1990s, he founded Linden Research Inc (functioning as Linden Lab), and commenced work on trying to develop both the hardware and software for an immersive virtual reality system. The company switched to focusing on the software – which it called LindenWorld -, launching it as a publicly-accessible platform under the name Second Life in 2003. As founder and CEO, Rosedale steered the company through until 2008, when he stepped back from the role of CEO to become chair of the board of directors.
In 2009, he founded LoveMachine Inc., with Ryan Downe, which later evolved into Coffer and Power (2011), with Rosedale briefly returning to Linden Lab in 2010 as interim CEO. After two years developing a mobile application called Workclub that helped bring contractors and those seeking them together, he and Downe announced Coffee & Power would become a new company, High Fidelity Inc. (2013), focused on building a fully decentralised virtual reality environments, and the required supporting applications / services. In 2019, High Fidelity ceased working on this platform to focus on one of the key supporting services: spatial audio, with their product subsequently being licensed by a number of companies.
In 2021, High Fidelity invested in Linden Research, brining in both staff and patents that might be used with the platform, and while High Fidelity still very much operates as an independent entity, Rosedale took the part-time position of Strategic Advisor to Linden Lab.
Questions Specific to Brad Oberwager
2.5 Years On From Acquiring LL, How Does He Feel Things Are Going?
- While he acquired Linden Research, has come to realise he doesn’t “own” Second Life; the users and the staff at the Lab “own” Second Life, and he feels he is along for the ride.
- Has been so welcomed by the user base and the staff at the Lab over 2.5 years, doesn’t think of it as owning and running a company so much as having a moral imperative to ensure Second Life continues for the next 20 years.
- As such sees the platform as less of a business in the fullest sense of the word, but as something which must be allowed to continue.
- Looking at the metrics, feels that the platform is very stable overall (although there has been a small decline in active users).
- Feels the most complicated issue with Second Life is, given its size and overall cost to maintain and run and the limited resources LL necessarily has, how to balance the focus / expenditure between growing the platform’s capabilities to the benefit of its current active user base and bringing-in new users and engaging them in the platform to keep things vibrant and fresh. As such, his major worry regarding SL and his management of the company is – in his words – “don’t eff it up!”
Has It Been Easy / Hard to Add His Own Imprint to the Platform?
- Has never intended or tried to imprint himself on SL. Rather, he has always seen his goal as being “releasing the Lindens to do what they love to make Second Life the best for the community”, and to provide the resources required in order for this to happen.
- Notes that this is not entirely altruistic: Linden Lab / Second Life both have a business value, and SL is not inexpensive to run. However, believes that this approach is the best path by which to make Second Life more valuable as a business.
- Feels that his acquisition of Linden Lab [with J. Randal Waterfield] amounted to a fundamental shift in the company from one being run by venture capitalists [where ROI might be a guiding factor], to a partnership in which a longer-term view could be taken, including the splitting-off of business elements [e.g. Tilia] to allow the available resources to freed-up to focus on the platform.
- He hopes this last point has been understood and welcomed by users.
What is the Status Re: a New CEO?
- Traditionally, the role of the CEO is to take care of the general running of an organisation – taking ultimate responsibility for things like allocating resources, budgets, setting the culture and tone for the business, etc., on the basis of input from the executive level managers, and to manage the Board from the bottom-up, whilst the Chair of the board manages the latter from the top down.
- Insofar as Second Life is concerned, these duties / responsibilities are being managed by a team of individuals called, internally, TOOSL [“too-sol” – The Office Of Second Life, comprising Brett Linden, Grumpity Linden, Mojo Linden and Patch Linden in their various Vice President roles].
- Brad himself is Executive Chairman, meaning he is hands-on involved in running Linden Research as a company, as well as managing the board [comprising himself, J. Randal Waterfield and Raj Date].
- As Executive Chair, Brad has the TOOSL team reporting into him – a dynamic which works, and which negates the need for a “Second Life CEO”, while his position as hands-on Executive Chair for the company means he is a kind of de facto corporate CEO without actually taking the title.
- Given this structure, there are no plans to hire-in a CEO,, but the roles performed by a “traditional” CEO are being performed.
As An Investor, What Does He Value Most About SL?
- Asks that people remember that he doesn’t look at Second Life primarily as a investor.
- However, as an investor, particularly values the consistency of the experience and the loyalty of the users, both of which mark SL as a good business, and the fact he can achieve all his goals as an investor through his active involvement in managing and running the Lab (and by extension, Second Life).
Tilia Update
- Believes questions on Tilia are born of two things: positive curiosity and unfounded fears.
- The fears are based on the idea that having the Lab focus on “non-SL” activities takes away resources from SL. While not commenting on situations prior to his arrival, he would note that Second Life cannot exist without Tilia, because of its management of the financial elements involved within the platform – the ability to purchase virtual goods, to exchange physical world currencies [“fiat money”, to use the technical term] and Linden Dollars and back again, etc.
- As such, Tilia is not some spin-off project within the Lab. Rather, it enables Linden Lab to adhere to a complicated series of state, federal and international financial requirements and regulations. If it did not exist, LL would have to go out and obtain the services Tilia provides – and be locked into the structure of those services without any ownership of them.
- However, as Linden Lab owns Tilia, it presents added security to Second Life [as the company maintains control of the services] whilst allowing LL to market the services Tilia provides to other interested parties. This has two additional benefits:
- As such, any success for Tilia reflects well on Second Life.
Questions Specific to Philip Rosedale
What Inspired Him to create Second Life?
- In the late 1990s attempted to develop The Rig a virtual reality system, working with Andrew (now Leviathan, since his return to LL from High Fidelity) Linden.
- Nine months into this work, the team started developing the virtual world itself – at that time intended to be a physics simulation of an enormous world, rather than an avatar-based world. A place where the laws of physics could be tested an constructs made.
- As people within the company started using the software and getting caught up within it, the focus shifted to developing the virtual world itself and presenting it as an immersive experience.
- [As many know, that led to the development of LindenWorld, and copies of a 2001 video of that environment, populated by “Primitars” (as they were built from the world’s primitives) can still be found on You Tube.]
- Never thought the platform would still be going 20 years on, let alone the rich diversity of activities and content, and is “deeply, deeply happy” with the way the platform has flourished and adopted / adapted by users.
What Worries / Excites Him Most for the Future of SL?
- Is excited about the fact that – even without the need for headsets – SL is seen as being a leader within the field, and feels that it is a fundamental demonstration of how people can positively spend time within virtual environments – “the metaverse” (alongside the few other multi-person virtual worlds that have managed to survive), and how a virtual world can both positively empower and bring people from all backgrounds together.
- Is also concerned that the increasing AI toolset that is gaining greater use, coupled with the spread of misinformation, could, if mis-applied to virtual worlds, lead to things going “horribly wrong” if there are a lot of people using those virtual spaces.
- As such, has spent much of his time of late trying to articulate the positive strengths of SL, and how they could be positive influence within social media, digital currencies, etc.
What is His Role at Linden Lab / Within Second Life?
- Notes that the relationship between Second Life and Linden Lab is unusually dynamic, as the growth of each informs the other.
- Due to the multiple inputs to and uses of the platform, it doesn’t lend itself to the “traditional” form of reactive, product-led, top-down management, and so support’s Brad’s comment vis the role of CEO.
- His own role is that of Second Life Strategic Advisor, being available to help consult on areas where his opinion / expertise is concerned. However, notes that as he is busy on multiple fronts, his direct involvement in Second Life’s development takes the form of “a little of my time and a lot of my love.”
What is His Biggest Sense of Pride in SL, and What Would He Do differently if Starting Over Now?
- As a joke: make everyone walk or fly everywhere, as per the early days SL, pre-teleports and even pre-telehubs!
- Joking aside, does think that physicality – know and seeing where you are, seeing the world change as you move – is an important part of Second Life.
- The things he is probably most proud of in SL is the sheer diversity of creative expression, and also the positive, welcoming, open experience users present to those coming into SL and in which people can build friendships and relationships, and where the technology doesn’t cause divisiveness.
What Does He Think SL Says About Human Nature, Given it Eliminates the Physiological and Safety Needs of Maslow’s Hierarchy?
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Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Hadn’t considered SL from this perspective, but it is true that that SL removes physiological needs (eating, sleeping, etc), and presents an environment where people are not forced to reveal themselves fully, it does remove the base levels of Maslow’s pyramid.
- This does free us to give greater expression through the others layers of the hierarchy.
- In particular with Second Life, it reinforces the social, collaborative and supportive / nurturing aspects of human nature and our desire to connect with others.
- As such, SL informs us that human nature is such that if we are freed from the baser psychological needs, we are naturally more predisposed towards finding and taking delight in connecting with others, which can only be beneficial to humanity as a whole.
Is the Blockchain in SL’s Future?
- Simple answer: no.
- Feels that things are perhaps too polarised in railing against the limitations of a centralised system (which bringing with it its own problems of moderation, management, etc), there has perhaps been too much of push towards totally de-centralised solutions, which also have their own problems.
- Can align some of the issues of de-centralised systems with early experiences in SL, when some would obtain Mainland and then put up obnoxious / pornographic signs, etc., simply to try annoy / harass those holding the land around them and / or try to extort people into “buying them out” at ridiculous prices.
- As such, healthy worlds / system tend to exist somewhere in the middle ground between the extremes; and while there are aspects of blockchain technology which are intriguing, there is nothing inherent to it that would make SL “immediately better”.
What Element of Second Life Do You Hope Never Changes?
- The platform – other than innovating positively without becoming just another “social media platform”, and his avatar’s pants!
Questions Answered by Both
SL and the Use of AI
- Philip Rosedale:
- Believes there are bad ways and good ways to mix AI with virtual worlds, and has a personal belief that any technology – not just AI – should be used to bring people towards one another and not drive them away from one another.
- Has already seen Chat GPT used within Second Life by users in the form of NPCs, etc., and believes that much experimentation in AI tools in general will not just come for companies and research institutions, but from users as well.
- Thus, if AI tools are used in place of direct interactions between people, this would be a “terrible mistake” for us as a society and as a species.
- However, if AI can create greater trust and connections between people – particularly between people who might not otherwise know one another – that is a very good thing.
- Would personally like to see AI help to make us all better communicators, or help in areas of person-to-person conflict resolution, etc.
- Brad Oberwager:
- In terms of SL, does not believe the question is about “letting AI in” or not, it’s about being open to the potential for change whilst keeping a specific moral compass on what you are trying to accomplish. Doing so clarifies how to reach that point and helps determine whether or not AI is a tool that helps you in accomplish what you want to achieve.
- With Second Life, being open in this way to the use of things like AI also helps ensure continued relevance.
- The openness to new ideas and potential technologies is embraced within TOOSL.
How Will SL Mobile Differ to the Desktop Viewer, and What Impact Will it Have on SL?
[Note: see also: Second Life Mobile: Video update from the Lab, with summary]
- Brad Oberwager:
- Believes the excitement around SL Mobile is deserved, and it will be good for SL and the users.
- The focus on SL Mobile has been to take the visual beauty of Second Life – including the avatars – and make it available through mobile devices, even though this was a substantial challenge.
- Could have opted for a much simpler solution (e.g. text-based) or focused on a specific sub-set of viewer functions; but the fact that the harder road of graphics fidelity should be taken as a long-term commitment to growing the Mobile product (what he describes as a “10-year journey”).
- This extended development of SL Mobile should be kept in mind in terms of the length of time thus far taken in development, the amount of effect that will be put into iterating and expanding on it, and in managing expectations when the initial version reached a public beta.
- The overall goal with SL Mobile is a build a capability that will be of value to current SL users and potentially help to increase SL’s appeal among user who may have departed Second Life and encourage them back.
- Sees the broader goal if brining entirely new-to-SL users to the the platform as being part of a different experience.
- Philip Rosedale:
- Adds the historical context that Second Life, as we know it today, was initiated as a project in 2000, well before the arrival of smartphones (2007). As such, he admits LL were “blindsided” and “befuddled” by the launch of the iPhone and the potential it had, occurring as it did just as Second Life was starting to climb the slope of adoption.
- Still believes that developing an immersive environment like SL that can run on mobile devices remains a complicated task. It is not a simple port of code; it is an on-going journey, including re-examining how activities – conversing, etc., – are performed using a mobile device, hence why development of SL Mobile is taking time.
- Also notes a further complication arises in trying to accommodate something of a generational divide among users: catering to those who are “pre-smartphone launch” in terms of their engagement, and are very comfortable with the desktop and also those who are “post-smartphone launch” and so perhaps more disposed towards mobile devices and using them vastly differently, perhaps, to “pre-launch” users.
Second Life and VR / AR Headset and Technology
- Philip Rosedale:
- Spent 10 years with High Fidelity trying to build a “new Second Life” fundamentally geared towards VR headsets, and so has “learned a lot and bled a lot”.
- In terms of SL and the use of headsets, would take the nuanced view that Second Life is an extremely diverse and welcoming community which stands independently of any given technology or technological focus.
- At this point in time, VR headsets and devices are by their nature non-inclusive; not everyone can use them, and not everyone trying them is comfortable with them. Thus, looking to have Second Life running as a VR headset-centric application isn’t feasible in respect to this, although as the headset technology continues to develop, this may change in the future.
- Brad Oberwager:
- Is “foolishly” [his term] hoping that by the time VR headsets and devices do get to the point of mass adoption, AI coding tools will have developed to a point where constructing a version off second Life geared to those devices will be a much easier set of tasks than might currently be the case.
- As such, and in keeping with the philosophy of being open to change, the continued development of VR / AR is something the Lab will continue to monitor, but developing some version of SL to cater to it is not a part of the current development roadmap, and is unlikely to be so for some time.
Linden Lab’s Business Model and Advertising
- Brad Oberwager:
- While SL is expensive to run which makes the potential for ad-base revenue generation appealing, the Lab’s business model is not ad-based for a reason: switching to an ad-based model would likely ruin all that has been built over the past 20+ years.
- As such, and while accepting there is a lot of user-to-user advertising within Second Life, any idea of bringing-in external advertisers to market within Second Life as a means of revenue generation is “off the table”; it is simply not a core value within Linden Lab to to so.
- The only circumstance he can see where this might change were if it were to come down to a point where, in order to keep SL running, it’s a choice between raising service prices “so high” as to frighten users away or allow advertisers into the platform.
- Points out that when external organisations now enter Second Life – as with Capitol Records / Motown, the focus is not on revenue generation for wither the partner or LL, but on building an experience worthy of SL, and which engages users. This is the direction LL would prefer to lean into.
- Philip Rosedale:
- One of the attractions of Second Life is the fact that LL does not know too much about the people using it and does not identify users’ physical world information beyond what is absolutely necessary.
- The means all the kinds of monitoring / behavioural modification techniques commonly used in targeted advertising cannot be implemented through SL, because the user data isn’t there / isn’t being collected.
- In fact would prefer to see such advertising made illegal, and fid the user of such advertising through VR tools particularly insidious, due to the manner in which data can be gathered on an individual pure as a result of tracking the actions and body movements, particularly when they are communicating and are not event aware of the additional information about themselves they are presenting.
- The kind of advertising SL does have [from creators, communities, etc.] leans towards the contextual advertising type (also seen on the web) – wherein the ad is based on what the user is looking at, not the result of data gathered on the user.
Are There Specific Improvements They Would Like to See with SL?
- Brad Oberwager:
- It’s less about what he personally wants to see, but finding the resources required to implement the many idea that come from the regular off-site gathering the Lab has (the most recent being in Atlanta).
- Philip Rosedale:
- Would like to see Second Life have a much broader appeal so those more people experience the positive enhancements it can bring to life in general.
- Would like to see more natural, non-verbal avatar-centric communications – body language, hand / limb movement, etc. This is hard to solve for, but believes as technologies mature, it can be done.
How Often Do They Log-in to SL, and What Do They Do In-World?
- Brad Oberwager:
- Logs-in to SL more than people think, but for a very different reason. Most of his in-world time is spent looking at what the team has created (e.g. the Motown Experience, the new Welcome Hub) and to try-out new features and capabilities added to the platform.
- However, does enjoy logging-in and doing something “quirky”, such as meeting a resident and letting them show him something or finding out (and participating in) what they enjoy doing.
- Philip Rosedale:
Where Do They See SL Ten Years from Now?
- Philip Rosedale:
- Maybe right where it is; no longer looks upon it it terms of what is the on / next thing that must be done.
- Given SL is now 20 years old, it is very much like an actual stable world, so might it resemble what we see today in another 10 years? Possibly – and that’s still a wonderful thing.
- However, this does not mean not further change / innovation – as Brad Oberwager noted, change is important to both sustainability and to growth.
- Brad Oberwager:
Closing Comments
- Brad Oberwager:
- Internal meetings at the Lab are never started or finished with the presumption / decision that something should be done because it will make things worse for the users / Second Life. The presumption / desire is always to make the platform better.
- However, very often when the Lab makes changes, there is “an uprising” and negative reactions which actually generate a lot of fear within LL towards trying ideas that could potentially improve SL further.
- As such, when the Lab does deploy something, asks that before giving vent to reactions, users attempt to:
- Understand when it has been done, and why it has been done.
- Take on board the fact that SL’s 20+ years mean that while it works, changes can cause unintentional breakages (which themselves can be a learning experience for the Lab), can result in betterment, even if things are changed.
- By being more open to the consequences of change and the potential for things possibly breaking & then having to be fixed, users will benefit, as the Lab will be more willing to make changes that improve the platform [including those suggested by users].
- Philip Rosedale:
- Agrees with Brad in users being supportive of the Lab in trying to change and improve SL, rather than immediately reaching for pitchforks.
Inara Pey: Living in a Modemworld 