Category: News-Opinion

Sansar: news and updates from the media and from the Lab

Posted on by Inara Pey
Danger Linden (centre left) and Troy Linden (centre right) discuss Second Life and Project Sansar with Draxtor Despres and Saffia Widdershins at SL12B
Danger Linden (centre left) and Troy Linden (centre right) discuss Second Life and Project Sansar with Draxtor Despres and Saffia Widdershins at SL12B

Linden Lab’s next generation virtual worlds platform, code-named Project Sansar made the news in Second Life and in the media on Thursday, June 25th.

In the media, Bernadette Tansley, writing in Xconomy covers how Second Life Creator Linden Lab Prepares To Test Parallel VR Universe, delving into the forthcoming closed alpha testing for the new platform, which we know to be code-named Sansar.

In terms of Sansar news, the article specifies:

  • It can already run at 75 frames per second
  • The Lab plans to accelerate the platform to 90 frames per second to sync with specifications expected for the Oculus Rift and other headsets
  • The initial closed alpha, involving a limited number of creators experienced in the use of Maya, will commence in July 2015
  • If all goes according to plan, the programme will gradually be expanded to a more public beta testing phase around the first half of 2016
  • A “version 1.0” of the platform might be ready by the end of 2016.

Outside of LL and Sansar, the article is interesting in that it suggests Cloud Party, which was acquired by Yahoo in 2014, is still in the running to develop a virtual world that can be operated with the upcoming new range of VR headsets, etc.,  alongside the Lab, Philip Rosedale’s High Fidelity and new start-up AltspaceVR.

You can read the entire piece by following the Xconomy link given above.

Drax, Danger Linden, Troy Linden and Saffia at the Meet the Lindens at SL12B
Drax, Danger Linden, Troy Linden and Saffia at the Meet the Lindens at SL12B

During an interview with Danger Linden, Sr. Director, Product, Virtual Worlds and Troy Linden, Senior Producer, held as a part of the SL12B Meet the Lindens series of conversations, the subject matter inevitably came around to Project Sansar, and the following tidbits of information were given.

Further confirmations of Known Basics

  • SL users will be able to use there SL identities with Project Sansar if they wish
  • Linden dollars will be the transaction currency / tokens on Project Sansar
  • Both voice and text will be supported in Sansar for chatting / communications.

However, neither of the above mean you’ll be able to teleport directly from SL to Sansar or vice-versa; both are separate entities.

“Master” Accounts

Users will be able to have a “master account”, under which they can then have multiple avatar accounts they can use.

  • The “master account” will be known only to the user and Linden Lab, and will use an e-mail address as the main form of authentication
  • Users can create multiple avatar accounts (or “persona names” as Danger Linden referred to them) under this “master” account, which they can use to access Sansar, and will be known to other users only by the avatar account they are using
  • Inventory and account balances will apparently be associated with the “master account”, allowing them to be shared between the avatar accounts under the master account
  • It is not clear what format avatar / persona names will take, and whether it will be a first name, last name format.

(The idea of having a “master account” with this kind of flexibility has long been on users’ wish lists for Second Life for a long time – see JIRA SVC-6212 and my own article from 2011 on the subject. As such, this is liable to be a popular move among those SL users interested in trying Second Life.)

Anonymity and Trust

Sansar users will be able to have as much anonymity as they wish. However, the more information that users provide to Linden Lab – be it wallet identity, a verified e-mail address or payment information – the more capabilities they’ll have in-world.

The idea here is to try to address the issue of griefing while still maintaining a relatively low barrier to entry – obviously, the easier it is to access the platform, the easier it is for muppets to run amok. So, the idea is that as more information is provided, the greater the level of trust established between user and Lab, allowing people to “do more” in-world and participate more. However, the exact relationship between platform capabilities awarded, and the information users will be asked to provide in order to access them, is still being determined.

Obviously, the content of the information you provide to the Lab remains private and confidential (i.e. if you supply a verified e-mail address, that e-mail address is not revealed to any other users). However, if a verified e-mail is required to, say, publish a Sansar “world”, then the fact that you have published that world will tell other users you have a verified e-mail with the Lab.

Mesh, Terrain and Building Tools

  • Sansar content will obviously be focused on mesh – but not necessarily exclusively mesh
  • The terrain will be voxels
  • Subject to further confirmation, it should be possible to also build in-world objects using voxels
  • Maya is the tool that is being used purely to assist with testing when the closed alpha commences. It will not be the only tool, and it will not be the sole tool for content creation (see Ebbe Altberg’s comments on alpha access and tools from the Virtual Worlds Best Practice in Education, March 2015)
  • A goal for Project Sansar is for people to be able to build in-world and to share in collaborative building
  • Sansar will include a full “professional” (in terms of its capabilities not in the need for people to have to be professional animators in order to use it) animation system, which will be based on Havoc animations (Havoc being the SL physical system),  overlaid with additional capabilities  / code directly from the Lab
  • All objects in Sansar will be fully scriptable and animated; it is not clear whether on-the-fly modifications to mesh items in-world will be possible
  • It is acknowledged that content creation tools can be a barrier to adoption / use; it is therefore a goal with Sansar to “make it easier to make things in Sansar than it is in Second Life”

Continue reading “Sansar: news and updates from the media and from the Lab” →

Early looks: Avatar Complexity and Graphics Presets

Posted on by Inara Pey

secondlifeTwo new options which will be appearing in the official viewer in the near future, and which have been mentioned in this blog a number of times over the past few months are Avatar Complexity and the ability to create, save and restore graphics presets. Both are intended to provide options by which users can better tune the viewer and its settings to suit their needs and circumstances.

I’ve had the opportunity to look at both in a development viewer from the Lab, and what follows is an overview of how things may appear when both capabilities are released for general use. However, please keep in mind that things are sill very much a work-in-progress at the moment and aspects of either / both may well change between now and any functionality appearing in any public version of the viewer.

Avatar Complexity

As avatars can often be the single biggest impact on the viewer in terms of rendering, particularly in crowded places, so  Avatar Complexity adds a new slider to the viewer which can be used to set a level above which avatars requiring a lot of processing will appear as a solid colour – the most popular term used to describe them being Jelly Babies after the sweet (candy) of the same name – greatly reducing the load placed on a system compared to having to render them in detail, so improving performance.

Avatar complexity is intended to help those who may hit performance issues as a result of their GPU struggling to render complex (hight render cost) avatars, by rendering such avatars as solid colours.
Avatar complexity is intended to help those who may hit performance issues as a result of their GPU struggling to render complex (hight render cost) avatars, by rendering such avatars as solid colours.

The intent with the capability is to allow people to adjust the setting according to circumstance, so that when in a crowded area with lots of avatars, the setting can be dialled down and more of those avatars which are harder to render become solid colours, while in quieter areas, the setting and can dialled back up, allowing more avatars to be seen in full detail.

Avatar Complexity is intended to sit alongside the avatar imposters functionality (Max # of non-impostors in the official viewer), allowing both to be used as required to produce more optimal performance in crowded or busy places.

By default, Avatar Complexity is set to No Limit, meaning all avatars in your field of view will fully render. As the slider is moved, it will list a render weight value, which is a revision of the RenderAutoMute function within the viewer previously used to help calculate the more familiar Avatar Draw /  Render Weight. The latter, viewed via Advanced > Performance Tools, has also been renamed to Show Avatar Complexity Information for consistency, with the displayed information updated.

The Avatar Complexity slider in Preferences > Graphics > Advanced Graphics Preferences (l) and the new format of information displayed when Advanced > Performance Tools > Show Avatar Complexity Information is enabled (r)
The Avatar Complexity slider in Preferences > Graphics > Advanced Graphics Preferences (l) and the new format of information displayed when Advanced > Performance Tools > Show Avatar Complexity Information is enabled (r) – click for full size

Graphics Presets

The initial work on Graphics Presets was undertaken by open source contributor Jonathan Yap (see STORM-2082) to provide a means by which users can save and restore different sets of graphics settings within the viewer. The idea being that users can then switch between different presets according to circumstance to help with viewer performance.

So, for example, one preset might have all the performance hitting items – shadows, projectors, etc., – turned on / up for times when the overall quality and depth of detail in a scene is important (such as when taking photos). Another might have these more taxing capabilities turned down / off to ease the processing load on a computer during more general activities. A third might be established for “in door” uses, with things like draw distance and the level of detail for external items (the sky, trees, terrain, reflections, etc.) all turned down, again easing the processing load.

Like Avatar Complexity, Graphics Presets is still undergoing development internally with the Lab, and so what is presented here may be subject to change.

Perhaps the most significant change this brings to the viewer is the introduction of a new Advance Graphics Preferences floater (shown below right). This is designed to display all of the options than a user can set and save within a graphics preset without having to either scroll through options (an earlier iteration of the design did use a scroll bar, but they didn’t meet with favourable reactions during testing), or having to switch between different sub tabs.

The new graphics profile options - the Advanced Graphics floater (as it is at present), and the options for saving / restoring profiles from within Preferences.
The new graphics presets options – the Advanced Graphics floater (as it is at present), and the options for saving / restoring profiles from within Preferences – click for full size

Continue reading “Early looks: Avatar Complexity and Graphics Presets” →

Ebbe Altberg talks Second Life, Sansar and VR to Bloomberg

Posted on by Inara Pey
A promotional image for Project SANSAR
A promotional image for Project SANSAR

On June 15th 2015, Ebbe Altberg participated in a Bloomberg Advantage podcast with hosts Cory Johnson and Carol Massar, discussing what is going on with Linden Lab in the run-up to the Second Life 12th anniversary celebrations.

The interview, which is some eight minutes long, unsurprisingly focused more on VR and its pcoming consumer focused headsets, together withe the Lab’s Next Generation Platform (codenamed Sansar) more than it did on Second Life, but what is said makes for interesting listening.

I’ve embedded an MP3 of the interview below, together with a transcript of the core discussion for those who prefer to read than listen. The transcript picks -up from the 28 second point into the interview, following general introductions. Breaks in the transcript, indicated by “…” are where the conversation includes asides or comments outside of immediate interest.

 

Cory Johnson (CJ): I want to talk about what’s going on with one of the kings of virtual reality, Second Life.

Ebbe Altberg (EA): Yeah. Second Life is still doing very well. It’s this month having its 12th birthday…

Carol Massar (CM): OK for those who might not know what Second Life is, those from the East Coast (laughter) I’m raising my hand for everyone on radio. Just for other folks out there who might not know.

Bloomberg's Carol Massar and Cory Johnson talk VR, SL and Sansar with Ebbe Altberg
Bloomberg’s Carol Massar and Cory Johnson talk VR, SL and Sansar with Ebbe Altberg

EA: So, Second Life is a virtual world that we created, but all the content and all the experiences in it are created by the users. so it’s a little like the real world … So you have a huge range of experiences in their ranging from role-playing to education, to health to art, and music. Just like in real life, people like to have all sorts of things in their world, and users have created all these things inside of Second Life.

And there’s a virtual economy where users can buy and sell digital goods and services to each other, and last year alone, creators of content and experiences in Second Life cashed out $60 million dollars. So a lot of people make a living creating and playing in Second Life.

CM: Where do you want to take it?

EA: We’re like the pioneers in this area, and the world around us is starting to catch-up a little bit …

CM: Competition out there?

EA: Yeah, a little bit of competition, but also with all these virtual reality headsets, these HMDs from Oculus, etc., is going to allow us and many others to take it to the next level. So we’re really excited about what’s happening right now, and we’re been hard at work for well over a year, investing heavily in a new platform  from the ground up that will take advantage of virtual reality hardware as it comes out later this year and early next year.  So we want to make sure we remain in a leading position when it comes to virtual reality experiences.

CJ: Well let’s talk about this a little bit. So Oculus sort-of has mind share, at least. When people talk about virtual reality now, then tend to think of these goggle-like experiences from Oculus. [But] there’s been academic work, particularly out of Stanford, suggesting that game-play might not be the thing; that it’s so immersive that it’s exhausting. That people can sit in front of their Xbox or PlayStation for 4, 6, or eight hours, but that you can’t do that with Oculus. What do you think?

EA: I think you will be able to. Part of why people say that is because the quality quality of the experience hasn’t quite got there yet.

CJ: So you’re looking at an image where your mind and your eye have to do so much more work, that it’s physically exhausting.

EA: No … when you see the latest generation of these things coming out now, it is not that exhausting any more; it’s actually quite relaxing.  You put these things on, an you’re wherever you want to be; you can be anybody you want to be and anywhere you want to be. And it’s it’s going to be comfortable …

CJ: The thing about when you put an Oculus goggles set on … first of all, the software right now is kind-of boring. The stuff that I’ve seen isn’t really gripping. It’s like, “Oh, this is cool. Imagine what you could do with it…”

EA: Did you try the Crescent Bay and the demos that came with it?

CJ: I haven’t done that.

EA: OK, so [with] the latest generation … you’ll forget about the hardware, you’ll forget about these pixels in front of you. You’re just there.

CJ: What is the experience you’re experiencing with that?

EA:  They’re still passive; they’re still basically playing things for you, that you watched. And you will have video-like experiences, but in 360; so you’re inside the video, rather than looking at the video, all the way to like what we do, which is social interaction and doing things like we’re doing right now in the studio, just hanging-out, meeting with people.

CM: Well, let me ask you Ebbe, I’ve been at Caterpillar and I’ve done their 3D world, or virtual reality world, where you pretend you’re in one of their big pieces of equipment to see how it worked and if the tools were in the right place. That’s my experience with it.  what about in a practical world? Are there applications that you guys are looking at?

A part of the interactive learning environment operated by Wendy Keeney-Kennicutt as part of the Texas A&M chemistry studies in SL
A part of the interactive learning environment operated by Wendy Keeney-Kennicutt as part of the Texas A&M chemistry studies in SL, and referred to in the interview (read more here)

EA: Absolutely, and they’re happening already today. Texas A&M is teaching chemistry in Second Life, and there are a lot of educational opportunities to teach …

CJ: How so? Is it, “pour this file into this beaker, but if it blows up, you’ll blow somebody up”? Or is it, you’re seeing the DNA or molecules?

EA: It’s a combination of actually doing lab experiments and pouring liquids and seeing what happens, as well as being able to interact with molecules, and you can sit on them, and you can do anything you want. So the ability to visualise information is way more powerful than reading it from a text book or watching it from a video.

CM: Is that potentially a big market there for you guys? Or Healthcare? We’ve just briefly toured around Seagull, and they’ve got a whole idea about what you’ve just called about; virtual reality and doing surgery, and having virtual reality to help a surgeon in that process.

EA: Yeah, it can can be for training, or it can help people with both mental and physical disabilities of all kinds. In Second Life already we have this older woman who has Parkinson’s; and because of Second Life she can run around, swim, fly, and exercise her brain. And because of that, she’s found that she has an easier way of moving in real life. So it can have a lot of really powerful impact on treatment or all kinds of phobias. I mean, right now here in our Lab, you can be on top of the golden Gate bridge and just get a sense of height …

In the interview, Ebbe Altberg indicates that one of the test VR experiences the Lab has developed for Project Sansar puts people on top of the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco (view via wdievisionpans.com)
In the interview, Ebbe Altberg indicates that one of the test VR experiences the Lab has developed for Project Sansar puts people on top of the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco (note: the above is not from Sansar, it is an image courtesy of wdievisionpans.com)

CJ: So, specifically, how do you manage the game play of Second Life? If you were to describe something that is the “common” Second Life experience now, and then what it would be like in this more augmented, 3D world of Oculus or whatever?

EA: Well, it’s taking immersion to a whole other level, where the brain starts not being able to tell the difference between what’s virtual and what’s real. And we take people through experiences in this next generation platform we’re working on – we’re calling it “Project Sansar” right now, it doesn’t have a final name. But you have people that are afraid of heights, for example, just getting really freaked out by being in the virtual space.

For example, Jeremy Bailenson of [the Virtual Human Interaction Lab at] Stanford … When he removes the floor underneath you in his Lab and tells you to walk this plank over this abyss, 30% of the people doing that in his lab cannot cannot walk the plank, it feels that real.

CM: I was thinking about the rides in Disney World or whatever; they can use this stuff.

EA: Oh yeah, they will!

CM: Cool stuff!

At his point the interview quickly wound down with the end of the podcast.

Again, not much is given away about the Lab’s Next generation Platform, and little is said in detail about Second Life. However, both Nassar and Johnson exhibit genuine interest in the subject of virtual environments and virtual reality, and to their credit don’t fall into the clichéd trap we’re all (or most of us at least) are so tired of hearing.

What is interesting to me is the the framing of the commentary around Sansar and the Golden Gate demonstration. This suggests that the Lab is creating something where the content potentially has a far higher level of fidelity than can perhaps be achieved with Second Life when placed within the immersive context of something like the Oculus Rift.

The message that Linden Lab is attempting to position itself as a major player in the emerging VR market does seem to be getting out. A recent report in Investor’s Business Daily, which estimates the potential market for VR / AR devices, etc., could hit US $62 billion by 2025, lists Linden Lab alongside of Valve, Magic Leap, Next VR, Jaunt VR and others as one of the private companies looking to carve itself a share of that market.

Share what Second Life means to you in a 12th anniversary project

Posted on by Inara Pey

To mark Second Life’s 12th anniversary, Linden Lab has launched a rather unusual video share project, asking residents to reveal some of what Second Life means to them.

The official blog post from Xiola which launches the project reads in part:

Second Life has been going strong for a dozen wonderful years and there’s a ton of things happening to celebrate. You’ll see more to come here in the Featured News Blog – but we wanted to stop and ask – “What is the meaning of Second Life?” To you – that is! This question may sound daunting – but the truth is, tapping into what makes “SL” so special to us as individuals and communities is a really amazing exercise in retrospection and self-discovery. This is your world – so what does it mean to you?

Whether you just got started, have been onboard for the full dozen years, or fall somewhere in between – we’d love to see a glimpse of your story in the “What Second Life Means to Me” video project. You don’t have to be a master of machinima to participate…

From a few seconds to a few minutes – just kick it off with this – “In Second Life, my name is …” and share your story from there! Once you have something set – share it! Upload it to YouTube and embed it on this forum thread. Together, we’ll watch the thread for new stories over the coming weeks – it should be awesome. If you prefer to express yourself in writing – share what Second Life means to you with a reply to the thread.

To get things started, and to springboard people’s inspiration, the Lab has included a number of videos from well-known names in Second Life, including Xiola and Torley from the Lab.

Each video is roughly a minute and a half long. Those they already provide a unique mix of stories and provides very personal points of view of Second Life, ranging from Torley’s extrovert and enthusiastic approach (which again reveals just why he is such a marvellous ambassador for the platform and the Lab), through to more introspective pieces, such as Xiola’s piece or Kaya Angel’s examination of creativity in Second life, and the richness it has brought to him in terms of his own creations and the people he has met.

This is a unique project everyone can share in – remember, videos are not required: you can write your own story  in a forum post if you prefer (and, I would guess, include your own pictures). Nor do you have to be a great machinima maker, or necessarily film in-world scenes.

It’ll be interesting to see who else opts to celebrate SL’s 12th birthday in this way, and reveals what Second Life means to them!

Second Life L$ Authorised Reseller programme to close

Posted on by Inara Pey

On Monday, June 15th, Linden Lab announced the forthcoming closure of the Linden Dollar (L$) Authorised Reseller programme, which has been in operation for just over two years.

The programme was originally introduced in May 2013, after Linden Lab had, earlier that month, made changes to their Terms of Service (ToS) which meant that only the official LindeX was the only place where trading in Linden dollars would be allowed.

At the time of the change, the Lab stated their reason for the change was to better protect users from the risk of fraud. However, there was considerable speculation on whether the move was linked to a set of interpretive guidelines (PDF) issued by the US Department of the Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement network (FinCEN). As I reported at the time the guidelines were issued, the suggestion was that insofar as the federal government was concerned, the Linden Dollar could be regarded as a virtual currency  a virtual currency (the Lab had “downgraded” it to a game token in 2010 within their ToS), and therefore potentially subject for more rigorous controls to prevent issues of fraud and money laundering.

However, whether or not FinCen’s guidelines were a trigger point for the Lab’s changes to the Terms of Service in 2013, the changes themselves did cause assorted problems for may users outside of the United States who wished to but L$, but who could not, again for assorted reasons, easily use the LindeX.

The Linden Dollar Authorised Reseller logo, introduced with the programme in 2013

The Linden Dollar Authorised Reseller programme was a direct response to the problems users affected by the ToS changes were encountering. It allowed approved bodies to buy Linden dollars through the LindeX and then resell those L$ to users in a variety of international currencies and via numerous payment methods. However, in keeping with the May 2013 ToS changes, these Authorised Resellers were not allowed to buy back L$ from users or cash users out – such transactions would still have to go via the LindeX.

When it was introduced, the Authorised Reseller programme was supported by a wiki page, and was regarded by the Lab as a pilot programme – and its status as such has never changed over the last two years. Nevertheless, it proved to be popular; by early June 2013, just three weeks after it had been launched, some 29 resellers had been approved by the Lab as a part of the programme.

In announcing the closure of the programme, which will take place on August 1st, 2015, the Lab states:

Since then [the introduction of the programme in 2013], we have expanded the payment options for Second Life users, and today, you can easily purchase L$ in more countries than ever before, using a credit card, PayPal, or Skrill, which supports a wide range of payment methods. We’ve found that these options support the vast majority of Second Life users, and we have therefore made the business decision to close the Authorized Linden Dollar Reseller pilot program.

We are contacting program participants directly to detail the next steps for them, and they will have approximately six weeks to sell off their L$ inventory.

As of August 1, 2015, the Authorized L$ Reseller pilot program will be closed, and the LindeX will be the only authorized place to purchase L$.

While the announcement will probably lead to speculation and theories as to why the Lab is taking this step, the stated reason actually seems to be fair enough: when the changes were made to the Terms of Service in 2013, the loss of third-party exchanges for L$ purchases did impact users – but the Lab has, over the last two years, genuinely sought to offer more options by which users can make L$ purchases, all of which enjoy widespread use among Second Life users.

For full details on the closure and on how to buy L$ beyond August 1st, 2015 if you have relied upon a third-party authorised Reseller, please refer to the official blog post.

Second Life group list changes explained

Posted on by Inara Pey

A note of explanation. I first published on this update on Thursday, June 4th, PDT. However, that post was withdrawn out of respect of a request from Linden Lab that I not blog on the change at that time. Subsequent discussions with the Lab led to an agreement that I could blog in full on the matter once the change had been deployed across the grid. Hence this post.

Until now, it has been possible to open the details for any Second Life group you have joined and display all the information relating to that group, including the list of members.

However, with the new update, groups with 5,000 or more members will no longer display the list of members unless:

  • You are assigned the Owner or Officer role within the group
  • You are assigned an ability within the group which requires the members list to be displayed (e.g. you are able to assign members to assigners roles, or are able to eject / ban people from the group, etc.).

Instead, and until corresponding changes are made to the viewer, all you will see on opening the members list as a message stating “Retrieving member list (0 / XXXXX)” – where XXXXX is the total number of members in a the group, as shown in the images below.

The back-end cange currently on the server RC channels means that group member lists will not load (or may be truncated until the change is fully deployed) for those groups wil more than 5,000 members
The change to the logic on accessing group member lists for large (5,000+ members) groups means that the members list will no longer display for members of the group, unless they are assigned either the owner or officer role, or an ability that requires they can view the list.  Instead, and for the time being, the above message (illustrated using both the LL and Firestorm viewers) is displayed – click for full size

This update has been made for a number of reasons, including:

  • Where very large groups are concerned, the full list of members has rarely completely loaded into the viewer – it has only seemed that the list has loaded
  • Tests have shown that in order for very large groups (e.g. tens of thousands of members) to load can take on the order of 10 or more minutes, during which time no other activities within the viewer can be carried out
  • Opening the members group list for large groups can result in performance impacts elsewhere (notably in group chat, as we’ve seen with changes made to that service recently).

In particular, the update is related to additional changes the Lab intends to make to the viewer-side code for group management, as Oz Linden, the Lab’s Technical Director for Second Life, explains:

It turns out – and this was one of the reasons we made the change on the RC channel – because we weren’t really sure what it would affect. But it turns out there are a bunch of places in the viewer, where the viewer triggers these requests for all the members of a group where it’s not even going to use the data … So some of those requests are kind-of bogus and not helpful, and we’re going to be making a set of changes to take those out, and replace them with something more focused.

Do note, however, that this change is not in any way connected to the recent increase in the number of groups Premium members can join, and it is believe that around 600-700 groups are affected by the change.

The initial deployment of the update on the server RC channels on Wednesday, June 3rd gave rise to some concern, notably:

  • The message currently displayed by the viewer suggests that rather than the member’s list being prevented from loading, it has simply stalled or perhaps timed-out, which could result in elevated support calls
  • The change breaks a lot of ways in which a group’s members list is used – see BUG-9393
  • In particular, the change means that people unable to see the members list can no longer ascertain which owners / officers are on-line and in a position to assist with any group-related issues which might occur.

Acknowledging some of these points during the Server Beta User Group meeting on Thursday, June 4th, Oz said:

 There are some things we need to do in the viewer to make some of these changes clearer… those changes will be made as soon as we can … In the mean time, if large groups want their officers to be reachable, they may want to put something in the description to help with that.

Further to this, and in relation to making information on group owners / officer visible to all members of an affected group, and on improving the currently-displayed message in the viewer, Oz further stated during the TPV Developer meeting on Friday, June 5th:

We will find a way to make that information available in the fullness of time [owners / officers], but it probably won’t be real quick … We’re going to fix the problems, but it’s going to require building some new interfaces for things like, “show me who the officers are”.

There are certainly going to be some bug fixes for the viewer coming quite quickly, quite probably in the next maintenance viewer, not the one that will get released next week [week #24]  but the next one, that will clean-up how things look. You’ll actually get a positive indication that you can’t see this list, or whatever. But we’re still fiddling with that.

Thus, while the changes to large groups may initially seem a little confusing, they are part of a larger attempt to improve group management functions within the viewer, and the Lab does recognise that more needs to be done to make key information within groups clearer to members.

In the meantime, please remember this change only affects those groups with 5,000 or more members, and does not prevent those assigned roles / abilities that require them to be able to see the group’s member list. Groups with less than 5,000 members remain unaffected by the change, and all members will continue to be able to see the group members lists for these when viewing a group’s information.