SL Go on the Nexus 7 2013 HD

SL go logoImportant note: The SL Go service is to be shut down on April 30th, 2015. For more information, please read this report.

When OnLive launched their SL Go service, a comment following my preview article on the service asked if I’d report back about any ongoing experiences I have with it.

At the time, I indicated it would be unlikely that I’d do so, as I rarely have need to access Second Life when away from my main computer, and when such occasions do occur, I have Lumiya at my disposal which tends to meet all the needs I have for mobile SL access.

However, I decided that in the interests of testing / reporting, I’d take some time to drive SL Go on my Nexus 7 2013 HD.

For those unfamiliar with Asus’ 2013 offering on behalf of Google, the Nexus 7 HD features a 7-inch screen with a 1920×1200 resolution at a whooping 323 ppi, a Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 Pro CPU paired with an Adreno 320, 400 MHz GPU and 2 GB RAM and, in the case of the model I have, 16 GB internal storage. As such, it runs Lumiya beautifully. But what of SL Go?

Wandering trhough LennonParkOnTheRock using SL Go on the Nexus 7 HD (overlay closed)
Wandering trhough LennonParkOnTheRock using SL Go on the Nexus 7 HD (overlay closed) – click for full size

Well, frankly and unsurprisingly, it runs SL Go pretty fabulously. As with the Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 OnLive loaned me for the SL Go preview, SL Go is slick and fast on the Nexus and beautifully clear – most of the time (a caveat I’ll return to in a moment).

Rather than a quick on / off with the service, I spent time wandering around LennonParkOnTheRock, which I’ve reviewed in these pages (using Firestorm for the photos, simply so I can access all the windlights I tend to use). I explored the trails and paths, had a chat with one of my blog subscribers (/me waves to Ringo), and tried a few snaps both via screen capture (1920×1200) and via the viewer’s snapshot floater & e-mail (allowing me snaps at 4096×2497).

Overall, and allowing for the fact my Internet connection was a tad bit ropy at the time due to an intermittent line fault, my experience on the Nexus was easily equitable to that gained on the Galaxy Tab 3. However, the additional real estate offered by the latter’s 10-inch screen did make it perhaps a preferable choice for me when using SL Go, even with the higher and crisper resolution on the Nexus.

LeonnParkOnTheRock captured on the Nexus at 4096x2304
LennonParkOnTheRock captured on the Nexus at 4096×2497 using the snapshot floater & forwarded to my e-mail account – click for full size

In my original preview of SL Go I made mention of the fact that there is obviously a lower limit in terms of screen size where using the service is liable to become impractical, even with the overlay and the ability to zoom-in on the UI. This is something OnLive acknowledged in our chats about the service prior to launch as well. However, quite where this limit is comes down to a number of factors – with eyesight perhaps topping the list, alongside (maybe) screen resolution.

For me and my eyes, which aren’t quite what they used to be (although in difference to Spike Milligan / Eccles, they never used to be my ears….) my Nexus 7 is probably that lower limit. Yes, it was great having SL displayed in all its glory on the screen – graphics at Ultra, shadows, ambient occlusion and all the rest, but after 30 minutes, I started finding it hard to focus and found things getting a little blurry due to eyestrain (hence my little caveat earlier). This is not a fault of OnLive’s; I think there is simply too much detail on the Nexus’ screen for my eyes to comfortably process without me feeling some strain.

Of course, I could partly mitigate this by zooming-in on specific areas of the screen, reducing my overall field of view. But this raised its own issues; if I wanted to use a tool bar button or menu option, for example while zoomed-in, I had to first zoom back out and then zoom back in again to ease the amount of strain I was feeling behind my eyes – and this did start to get a little tedious in its own right. It also wasn’t something I noticed so much when using the bigger 10-inch screen of the Galaxy Tab (or at least, I wasn’t so conscious of it when using the Tab).

SL Go on my Nexus 7 HD + keyboard
SL Go on my Nexus 7 HD + keyboard

But leaving this aside, SL Go did run exceptionally well for me. The overlay, as with the Samsung Galaxy Tab 3, performed flawlessly, and the Bluetooth keyboard I use with my Nexus allowed me to chat a lot more easily than using the on-screen keyboard, and was obviously completely non-invasive on the screen, which was a big plus when compared to having just an on-screen keypad for text use.

So, would I be tempted to use SL Go over Lumiya?

That’s a tough one for me to answer and not necessarily because of the current SL Go pricing plan. The fact is that  I rarely need to access SL when away from may home computer, and when I do, Lumiya actually more than meets most of my needs, as noted at the top of this article. However, and more to the point, I’ve been a firm supporter of Lumiya and Alina’s work ever since Oz Linden gave me a nudge towards it back in early 2012,  and so have a certain loyalty in that direction which I’m unwilling to set aside purely on the basis of new shiny.

But that said, were there an occasion when I wanted to be in-world which benefited from having all the graphical richness of the viewer when away from my PC, then yes, I’d opt for SLGo, even with the current pricing plan. In fact, given my “mobile SL” needs are so rare, the fact that the service currently does have a metered payment system actually makes it more attractive to me than were it to have been introduced purely on a subscription basis.

This should not be taken to mean I’m against the service having a subscription payment option – I’ve already expressed an opinion that OnLive should offer both. It’s purely that even $25.00 for 10 hours of SL access via my Nexus is most likely going to last me a good several months based on past habits, thus making it potentially a lot lighter on my purse than a straightforward subscription service.

As it is, and putting questions of payment plans and what OnLive might or might not do in the future (and they are monitoring things closely, believe me) aside, I do now have two options for using SL from my Nexus should the need arise. And, eyesight allowing, choice is always a good thing, right?

Viewer release summaries 2014: week 11

Updates for the week ending: March 16th, 2014

This summary is published every Monday and is a list of SL viewer / client releases (official and TPV) made during the previous week. When reading it, please note:

  • It is based on my Current Viewer Releases Page, a list of  all Second Life viewers and clients that are in popular use (and of which I am aware), and which are recognised as adhering to the TPV Policy
  • By its nature, this summary will always be in arrears
  • The Viewer Round-up Page is updated as soon as I’m aware of any releases / changes to viewers & clients, and should be referred to for more up-to-date information
  • The Viewer Round-up Page also includes comprehensive links to download pages, blog notes, release notes, etc., as well as links to any / all reviews of specific viewers / clients made within this blog.

Official LL Viewers

  • Current Release version updated on March 10th to version 3.7.3.287491 (formerly the Maintenance RC) March 10 – core updates: assorted MAINT fixes (download page, release notes)
  • Release channel cohorts (See my notes on manually installing RC viewer versions if you wish to install any release candidate(s) yourself):
    • FmodEX Hotfix RC version 3.7.4.287875 released on March 11th – core updates: fix for a suspected thread race crasher in the FmodEx audio streaming library (download and release notes)
  • Project viewers:
    • No updates.

LL Viewer Resources

Third-party Viewers

V3-style

  • Firestorm updated to version 4.6.1.40478 on March 12th – core updates: many LL updates, incl HTTP & fitted mesh; many UI additions, multiple improvements and bug fixes – please refer to the release notes and my review here.

V1-style

  • Cool Viewer updated on March 15th to the following versions: Stable: 1.26.10.14; Experimental: 1.26.11.14; Legacy: 1.26.8.51 – core updates: all – backport of inventory updates / improvements; backport of potential gesture-related crash fix; backport of server alerts/notifications; Stable bug fix for a fitted mesh glitch;  Experimental: backport of the AISv3 API support  (release notes)

Mobile / Other Clients

  • No changes

Additional TPV Resources

Related Links

SL projects updates 11/3: TPV developer meeting, March 14th

A TPV developer meeting took place on Friday March 14th. The core items discussed in the meeting are reported below, with timestamps in the relevant paragraphs indicating the point at they are discussed in the video embedded here. My thanks as always to North for the latter.

SL Viewer Updates

[0:01:37] The list of release candidates in the release channel remains unchanged from part two of this week’s projects updates, and as per my Current Viewer Releases page.

FmodEx RC

[0:01:44] The FmodEx Hotfix viewer RC (version 3.7.4.287875), is a fix Monty Linden has been working on, and is described by Oz Linden as:

A threading problem that at least manifests when there are various FmodEx things going on, but is not strictly speaking an FmodEx problem. We think that was a good and important fix, but it doesn’t seem to have done all we hoped it would do yet.

Whether or not this is a fix TPVs would need to implement quickly or not is down to how they have implemented FmodEx.

Voice RC

[0:02:38] The Voice RC is essentially the release viewer with the Vivox 4.6.x SLvoice plugin packaged with it for Windows and Mac. Commenting on in from a Mac perspective, Oz Linden indicated that it does appear to solve a number of issues, such as working with an iPhone headset adaptor, which was an issue with earlier versions, as well as addressing some Mavericks related issues.

[0:11:11] There has been some confusion over the latest SDK supplied by Vivox, in that only the Windows and Mac versions of 4.6.x have so far been supplied; the Linux version is still an older version. It’s unclear as to when the Linux Vivox SDK will be supplied, as this is apparently seen as a “lower priority” compared to Windows and Mac, although the Lab is working on Vivox to try to improve matters. The Lab is also working to try to get 64-bit versions of the Vivox SDK, which could then be made available to those TPVs building 64-bit versions of their viewers.

Interest List RC

[0:41:54] Concern is raised as the number of updates which form a part of the interest list RC viewer, and whether these may leave TPVs with another “CHUI situation” when trying to merge things.  The repository for the viewer has been available since the viewer reached RC status, however, Oz went on to comment:

There’s a bunch of refactoring of things that people decided needed refactoring as a part of the process [and] which may or may not have been strictly needed as [a] part of interest lists; that is, part of the functional change that that branch is doing. Some of it was a new trace capability that’s used in a bunch of places where they wanted to take the measurements they wanted to take about it.

The interest list RC is working its way towards release status ... slowly ...
The interest list RC is working its way towards release status … slowly …

There have been various stability issues with the interest list RC, hence why it has remained an RC rather than being promoted to the de facto release viewer. However, it is now reaching the point where its stability is comparable to that of the other RCs in the release channel – and is actually better than some.

In terms of merges, there is the potential for the interest list viewer to cause TPVs some problems, as there appear to be changes to llCommons and other libraries which are causing issues for those TPVs which have attempted a merge.

Google Breakpad

[0:04:53] The Google Breakpad RC is due to make another appearance, as a “bunch of issues have been wrestled to the ground”, and the hope is that when it does appear in the release channel, it will mark the last round of updates for that particular project, and those TPVs using Google Breakpad are advised to take a look at what the Lab has done.

Overall Status for RCs

[0:04:10] Overall, it appears as if none of the RCs are performing as well as the Lab would like them to be in terms of crash rates. It had been hoped that the FmodEx Hotfix RC would get the Lab back below what Oz referred to as “an acceptable, if not admirable, crash rate”, but it has not done so as yet.However, the other RCs in the channel should see updates released in week 12 (week commencing Monday March 17th), one or more of which may improve the crash rates.

[0:43:56] In terms of what does get promoted next, the most likely candidate will be the RC which shows clear evidence that it is reducing the crash rate compared to current levels across the release and RC viewers.

[0:05:27] In the meantime, because of the volume of RCs sitting in the release channel, the Lab are holding back a number of further RCs,. These include the Project Zipper (faster installer) viewer being updated to RC status, and the group ban viewer (although there are bugs in this which are still being worked upon). There is also likely to be a further Snowstorm RC appearing with a mix of code contributions, again once the number of viewers currently in the release channel is thinned-down a little.

Continue reading “SL projects updates 11/3: TPV developer meeting, March 14th”

SL projects update week 11/2: group bans, JIRA, Oculus Rift

Server Beta meeting, Thursday March 13th
Server Beta meeting, Thursday March 13th

Server Deployments: week 11 – recap

As always, please refer to the server deployment thread in the forums for the latest updates / changes.

  • On Tuesday March 11th, the Main channel was updated with the server maintenance project deployed the BlueSteel and LeTigre channels  in week 10.
  • On Wednesday March 12th, BlueSteel and LeTigre joined Magnum in having support for a new version of the inventory service, AIS v3, enabled.  This service requires the use of the Project Sunshine RC viewer. The only changes compared to last week’s Magnum release was to include this week’s SLS changes.

Aditi Server Maintenance Package

A new server maintenance project arrived on Aditi in week 11, en route for a release on the main grid. This includes some bug fixes and some further work on the LSL syntax project  Ima Mechanic has been developing, and which is largely encapsulated in STORM-1831. The new project on Aditi specifically includes a new schema to fix STORM 2000, so expect this to be filtering through to the main grid in due course.

Group Ban Update

Not a lot to report here. Whirly Fizzle uncovered an awkward bug whereby a person granted the ability to ban others from a group could actually accidentally ban themselves. This proved a little hard for the Lab to initially pin down, prompting Maestro Linden to comment at the Server Beta meeting on Thursday March 13th, “We [he and Baker] both had problems earlier, because we were using a more manual method of just POSTing the data to the capability.” However, now the issue has been identified, a fix is being worked on.

JIRA Settings – Making Older BUG Reports Visible.

Following my note in part 1 of this report that users can opt to set their older BUG reports visible to the public, Maestro Linden said:

By the way, it’s possible to set the visibility of your past BUG issues by editing the ‘Security Level:’ setting. For the most part, we’re leaving that up to the reporters to change, if they’re willing to share their bug report issue more widely.

The reason we’re doing it that way is because people previously filed BUG reports with the expectation of only a few people being able to see it, and in some cases there are sensitive details like email addresses and conversations and whatnot.

On the matter of privacy, Maestro also indicated that new BUG reports can also be set for limited public viewing – that is, only to “Triagers and Reporter” should anyone have any concern over posting sensitive information in a new BUG report.

Oculus Rift

Not a lot to report here. The Lab has put out a call for beta testers for the Oculus Rift version of the viewer, as I reported here. commenting in broad terms about the project, Maestro Linden indicated that there is a slight drop in frame rate when using the headset, although he was uncertain as to the overall impact. He also described the revised UI as seen when in Riftlook as floating overhead, possibly in a toroidal form, and that the user needs to move their head to see it, so as not to have the UI invade the world view. He actually gave up trying to describe it, as he was without a headset when discussing it, and reported, “Marissa’s trying to explain it to me but it’s complicated :).”

Those fortunate enough to have a headset and who get into the beta programme will doubtless find out in due course!

Firestorm 4.6.1: Firestorm full-on

firestorm-logoUpdate: Shortly after release, Jessica Lyon dropped me a note to say the Vivox files didn’t actually make it to the release, but will now be made available via a separate download.

On Wednesday March 12th, the Firestorm team released Firestorm 4.6.1.40478, bringing with it a lot of features, fixes, updates and enhancements.

The complete list of changes, together with attributions, can be found in the release notes, and I refer readers to that document for specifics on contributors, FIRE JIRA, etc. The following is intended as an overview of some of the more major / interesting changes to be found in the release.

The first thing to note with this release is that it is, with the exception of the Linux 64-bit version (which is beta), a full release, not a beta or alpha or anything else.

So, if you’ve been avoiding trying 4.5.1 because it was a beta release, now is the time to consider updating. Do make sure when doing so that you take a look at the Firestorm 4.5.1 release notes, which provide a lot of information on that release as well which will of benefit to you as you gain familiarity with 4.6.1. You can also read my review of the 4.5.1 release here.

Downloading – a Reminder

This will be the first release of Firestorm following changes at Google forcing Firestorm to discontinue using Google’s download service (see the Download Server section of my Feb 15th FS meeting transcript for an explanation). This means that all Firestorm downloads starting with this release are via the team’s own download server.

As this is the only server the team has at their disposal for downloading the viewer, you may experience some delay / issues when attempting to download the viewer due to the volume of downloads the server is handling, particularly during the period following the release announcement. Should this occur, the Firestorm team request a little patience, and if you can, to consider re-trying a little later.

Installation

As always, a completely clean install of the viewer is recommended.

Windows 64-bit Installer

Those who have previously installed the windows 64-bit version will be aware that the installer could be painfully slow. With this release, the Windows 64-bit installer has been overhauled, and should be appreciably faster, and also includes some additional tweaks:

  • Added estimated installation size (200 MB)
  • Add/Remove panel icon (shared with 32bit installer for simplicity)
  • Added website URLs (shown in the bottom section of the Add/Remove panel)

Viewer and Installer Blocks

The release of 4.6.1 means that all versions of Firestorm prior to 4.4.2 will be blocked from accessing Second Life in around a week’s time. Additionally, and in reference to the Windows version of Firestorm, note that:

  • The 32-bit installer blocks the installation on any Windows operating system below Vista, except for 32-bit Windows XP with Service Pack 3
  • the 64-bit installer blocks the installation on Windows 64 bit on versions older than Windows XP with Service Pack 2.

Updates from the Lab

This release brings Firestorm to parity with many of the Lab’s more recent updates, highlights of which include:

  • Code parity with Linden Lab’s 3.7.2 code base
  • Fitted mesh support – for those unfamiliar with Fitted Mesh, I have an overview here
  • HTTP updates for improved rendering
  • Request Teleport feature
  • Region Restart updates
  • Vivox 4.6.x updates
  • SL Share (link to Facebook)
  • Temporary attachments no longer get removed improperly
  • … and more

Request Teleport

The Request for Teleport option (show from the People floater) and request.
The Request for Teleport option (show from the People floater) and request.

A feature contributed to the SL viewer by Jonathan Yap, Request Teleport allows users to pass a request to others asking that they be teleported to their location.

I covered the capability when it first appeared in an SL project viewer in September 2013, so in brief:

  • Select the person to whom you wish to teleport (from your Friends list or Nearby list, etc.), and select Request Teleport
  • Enter a message in the pop-up, if required, and click OK.
  • At the “other end”, the recipient of the request will receive the request and can either accept the request, sending a teleport offer, or reject it, in which case no message is sent
  • If the request is accepted, the sender see the usual teleport offer pop-up.

Note that Request Teleport is not a replacement for Firestorm’s “teleport to” capability, which remains unchanged.

SL Share and Facebook

The four tabs of the SLShare floater (as seen on the SL viewer), which allow those who want to to share their SL times via their Facebook account
The four tabs of the SLShare floater (as seen on the SL viewer), which allow those who want to share their SL times via their Facebook account

SL Share is a means by which those who have no issue with linking their SL account with their Facebook account can do so and send messages, photos, etc. to their Facebook account.

This was a feature released by Linden Lab again in September 2013, and I provided an overview at that time. however, it is probably worth repeating a couple of core points:

  • The feature is opt-in, and available to those who have no problem linking their SL identity with that of their Facebook identity
  • It has proven very popular among many users who have no problems doing so
  • It’s not about the “Facebookisation” of Second Life or trying to “make” SL users also use Facebook.

Region Restart Updates

The region restart updates comprise two main elements:

  • The new on-screen region restart warning, accompanied by a sound and camera shake
    The new on-screen region restart warning, accompanied by a sound and camera shake

    A new region restart warning notification, which is displayed in the centre of the viewer window every minute, on the minute, for the last five minutes prior to the region restarting, and which includes a countdown (in seconds) until the regions restarts

  • A camera-shaking warning which occurs every minute, on the minute for the last five minutes prior to the region restarting, causing the world view to shake., and which is accompanied by a region restart sound.

Note that both the new format notification and the camera shaking can be disabled / enabled as follows:

  • New region restart notification: Preferences > User Interface > Toasts > Use new region restart notification
  • Camera shaking: Preferences > User Interface > Toasts > Don’t shake my screen when region restart alert message is shown.

In addition, teleports to regions which are in the final 60 seconds before a restart will be prevented and the viewer will display a message in the format: “The region you’re trying to enter is about to shut down”.

Phototools

Phototools is updated to version 1.2, bringing with it a lot of enhancements, including:

  • An option to enable / disable screen space reflections (when shadows options are enabled)
  • The removal of legacy specular highlight and camera aspect ratio controls
  • Additional sliders/spinners and controls for RenderShadowBias, RedershadowBiasError,  CameraMaxCoF, FSRenderShadowSplitExponentY, FSRenderShadowGaussianX, FSRenderSSAOEffect and FSRenderShadowGaussianY
  • Increased editable value ranges for many spinners allowing greater control
  • Numerous other updates and amendments.

Details on the Phototools floater can be found here.

In addition, William Weaver, who first developed Phototools, has produced a series of video tutorials on using the floaters, the latest of which is provided below, which also looks at some of the most recent updates:

Contact Sets

Contact Sets, which allows Firestorm users to group their friends / contacts into groups or categories (friends, business contacts, members of s specific RP group, etc.), has been completely revised with this latest release of Firestorm.

Contact Sets now form an additional tab in the Conversations / Contacts floater, and as well as the familiar means of accessing it (via the Contact Sets toolbar button, or by Comm > Contact Sets or by pressing CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-C), it can now be displayed by any of the following methods, and then clicking on the Contact Sets tab:

  • Via Comm > Conversations / CTRL-T or via the Conversations toolbar button
  • Via Comm > Contacts / CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-F
  • Via Comm > Friends / CTRL-SHFT-F  or via the People / Friends toolbar button
Contact Sets is now integrated into the Conversations - Contacts floater (image courtesy of Firestorm)
Contact Sets is now integrated into the Conversations – Contacts floater (image courtesy of the Firestorm team)

The new layout is tidier and more integrated into the Firestorm UI, although a couple of options – such as the Rolodex functionality – are no longer present. New buttons provide a more intuitive approach to managing Contact Sets, and include the able to display friends and contacts using their Display Names or even set your own aliases for them (only visible in your Contacts Sets tab).

An overview and instructions on using the new Contact Sets can be found here.

Continue reading “Firestorm 4.6.1: Firestorm full-on”

SL projects updates week 11/1: server, viewer, group bans

Simulator User Group meeting (stock)
Simulator User Group meeting (stock)

Server Deployments: week 11

As always, please refer to the server deployment thread in the forums for the latest updates / changes.

Main (SLS) Channel

On Tuesday March 11th, the Main channel was updated with the server maintenance project deployed the BlueSteel and LeTigre channels  in week 10. This contains the following bug fixes:

  • Fixed a bug in which the server release notes link in “About Second Life” would sometimes fail to appear
  • Fixed a bug in which certain objects had incorrect status when crossing between regions
  • Fixed a crash mode.

A question in the forum thread following the week 10 deployments  about the nature of the fix for “bug in which certain objects had incorrect status when crossing between regions” was responded to by Maestro Linden, who explained the fix was limited to what appears to be a single-case issue.

Release Candidate Channels

On Wednesday March 12th, BlueSteel and LeTigre should join Magnum in having support for a new version of the inventory service, AISv3, enabled.  This service requires the use of the Project Sunshine RC viewer.

SL Viewer Updates

On Monday March 10th, the Maintenance RC viewer was promoted to the de facto release viewer, version 3.7.3.287491 (download) – release notes are here.

A new hotfix release candidate appeared on Tuesday March 11th. The FmodEx Hotfix version 3.7.4.287875 (download and release notes) is intended to correct a suspected thread race crasher in the FmodEx audio streaming library.

Otherwise, all other viewers remain as listed in my Current Viewer Releases page.

Group Ban list

Baker Linden, ironing-out viewer-side issues with Group Bans
Baker Linden, ironing-out viewer-side issues with Group Bans

Baker Linden is working to fix issues which were picked-up on during some initial public testing of the Group Ban functionality on Aditi during the Server Beta User group meeting on Thursday March 6th. Those issues already identified with the viewer code can be found here.

Allowing for further testing and scheduling, the current plan is to have the server-side elements of the Group Ban functionality deployed across Agni prior to the viewer code being released in an RC viewer.

Until that happens, the viewer code will either remain as a direct download or may filter into a project viewer at some point once the server code is ready to start being deployed on Agni (there is currently no date as to when this will be).

Currently, the development viewer is available for Windows or Mac OSX or Linux, but the group ban functions will only work on the Aditi test regions such as in Morris (at the Server Beta UG meeting area).

JIRA: Old BUG issues Can be Made Visible

The re-opening of the JIRA occurred in week 10, and at the time, only BUG issues raised after the re-opening would be available to public scrutiny. However, it now appears as if reporters have the option of re-opening their old issues to public viewing if they so wish. Callak Skytower, for example, has made BUG-4427 publicly viewable once more.

Other Items

Group Role Updates

An issue with group roles was raised at the Simulator User Group meeting on Tuesday March 11th. If a member of a group is assigned a new / additional role, the update occurs server-side, and is reflected in the Group floater for the owner / officer (or whoever is empowered to grant roles), but the change is not reflected in the Group floater of the person who has been granted the new / additional role until such it as they either re-log or are sent a re-invitation to join the group.

This has not been a cause of major concern, possibly because there is little in the way of role re-assignments occurring in groups on a daily basis. It is not currently clear as to whether the matter will be addressed, although there was general agreement that updates to role assignments should require something like a relog in order to be seen in the Group floater.

My thanks to mona Eberhardt and Rex Cronin for the meeting transcripts.