| On Friday, November 1st, 2024, Linden Lab held a Community Round Table event featuring Philip Rosedale, the co-founder of Second Life, and new-appointed Chief Technology Officer and returning member of the board of Linden Lab.
The session comprises two parts:
The main session lasted just over an hour, the official video for which is embedded below. However, this is not intended to be a full transcript, but a summary of comments / responses. In addition:
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Table of Contents |
Further, as the session continued after the official video had ceased recording. I have also included Pantera Północy’s video, which is set to start at the point at which the official video ends. However, given the informal nature of the discussion, I have not includes any form of transcript for this section.
Who Is Philip Rosedale?
Just for those who may not be fully familiar with Philip Rosedale’s name / past.
- Came to prominence in 1995 as the creator of FreeVue, an Internet video conferencing product, and acquired by RealNetworks, with Rosedale becoming RealNetwork’s Chief Technology Officer (CTO) in 1996.
- Departing RealNetworks in 1999, he founded Linden Research Inc. (operating as Linden Lab), a company initially focused on the potential of virtual reality.
- As a part of this work, Linden Lab created LindenWorld, and the company pivoted to a focus on the idea of creating an open-ended, Internet-connected virtual world – Second Life.
- Departing Linden Lab in 2010, Rosedale worked on a number of projects, including Love Machine, Coffee and Power and, from 2013 onwards, High Fidelity, a VR-centric, distributed virtual environment.
- High Fidelity shuttered it VR-focused work in 2019, pivoting to spatial audio product and patent development.
- In 2022, High Fidelity became an investor in Linden Lab in a move which saw a transfer of personnel and patents to Linden Lab, with Rosedale taking on a (not full-time) role of Technical Advisor.
- In 2023, Rosedale founder In Reality Lab (IRL415), ” a lab and community in San Francisco working on hard tech to improve the human condition by increasing trust and coordination between individuals and groups.”
- On October 30th, 2024, it was announced that Rosedale had been appointed to the role of CTO at Linden Lab and would be resuming a seat on the board. He has effectively been in the CTO full-time since the start of October 2024.
- He holds a B.S. in physics from University of California, San Diego.
Initial Comments
- Notes that he is back at the Lab full-time as CTO and on the board, and has been so since the start of October.
- Acknowledges the work of Brad Oberwager and the other investors in acquiring Linden Lab and in working to revitalise and update Second Life.
- Comments that the company is “again” successful as a business and has “extra money” to hire people, and the ability to pursue projects.
- Confirms that IRL415 has been quite successful in its own right, and is now operating as something of a “sub-project” based in the same building in San Francisco as Linden Lab [Battery Street, presumably].
- Indicates he is happy to be back, and acknowledges all the warm messages he received following the announcement.
- Hopes that in addition to the Community Round Table event, he hopes that this event marks the start of a broader conversation between Linden Lab and its users in Second Life.
- References he has been active WRT Second Life on various social media channels, and has formed an in-world group – Friends of Philip – which he encourages people to join as a means of communicating with him.
On Second Life and Technology
On Keeping Pace with Hardware Development
- Notes that many SL users have been engaged in Second life for more than 10 years.
- Many people using SL depend on it in a manner unlike MMOs or on-line games, and to them it is more like a necessity like a cell phone than a “game”.
- As such, believes that only support the most recent generations of home computer hardware is far more ethically fraught for Second Life than for MMOs and games, as it comes with far greater risk in impacting people’s lives and ability to connect with other to a far greater degree.
- In this, notes that this is why LL has been so focused on recovering viewer performance across the board following the recent impact of issues associated with [but not necessarily all the result of] the deployment of PBR Materials support in SL.
- Thus, as much as it is important to keep improving things like the graphics fidelity of SL, Linden Lab has to recognise who is actually using the platform across the board, and not “cut off” large swaths of the user community as has been the case recently, to whom LL apologies.
On VR and Second Life
- Believes one of the most mind-blowing things about VR Chat is being able to see your own avatar from a first-person perspective; “wearing” your avatar.
- The challenge here is that VR headset [usage?] is growing far too slowly. Would love to find a way to Second Life in VR, but LL does not have the resources to write a VR viewer from scratch.
- LL are thinking about VR in terms of the more distant future, but not thinking about it right now.
On AI and Second Life
- Notes that LL has been carrying out a number of “alpha tests” of AI bots [such as the one at the Welcome Hub] acting as greeters and trying to provide help to new users.
- States that “one of our companies here in the office” [IRL415?] has worked on some interesting back-end deployments of AI technology for SL, such as assisting with the Canny reports triage process.
- Overall notes that the application of AI within Second Life is something LL has to be careful about, particularly with the use of AI with in-world characters – NPCs, bots, companions, etc. It’s important that AI is used – as SL is used – to bring people together, rather than a means to provide substitutes for each other.
- Hopes that LL’s focus will continue to be in bringing people together.
- [Video: 42:02-42:39 – whilst discussing preserving SL’s history]:
- Notes that he is a huge fan of artificial life, and thinks “AI will get really unusual when you get actual living things moving around in an environment.”
- Describes some of the work at IRL415 [?] in attempting to use AI create conscious, living things,” rather than text prediction machines, etc. It’s not clear if he feels these might have future application in SL.
On Upgrading SL’s Underpinning Engine and The Viewer
- SL has a complex user experience, and people need to be able to help one another in using it, and so requires a common, if complex, user interface (UI).
- Because of the complexities involved, LL has to plan on utilising that user experience for a long time / indefinitely, and most likely on the same engine.
- Also because of this complexity, simply swapping out the underpinning engine is not something that can feasibly be undertaking.
- However, that said, based on experience gain in developing Mobile, LL are evaluating the potential of building a new viewer to make SL more accessible to people who either don’t have higher-specification home computer hardware or have difficulties in understanding the UI.
On Updating SL’s Scripting Engine
- Work is in progress to enhance SL’s scripting through the use of Luau, as used by Roblox.
- Part of this is aimed at enhancing SL’s existing scripting capability and make it easier for content creators to script in SL.
- This is not ready for release, but is being worked on.
- [Note: the Luau work is two distinct projects: a client-side implementation of Luau (e.g. viewer-side only); and the above work mentioned by Philip, which will allow Luau interpretation of LSL / Luau support for server-side scripting. I attempt to provide updates on both of these projects through the likes of my Content Creation, Simulator, and TPV Developer User Group Meeting summaries, as updates on the work are offered by LL.]
On the SL Mobile App
- Does not believe the Mobile app will become the sole means of accessing SL; the deepest and most immersive uses of SL probably cannot be translated completely for use on mobile devices. Rather, the hope is that at some point, a new user will be able to access SL entirely via the Mobile App, but “we’re not there yet”.
- The current focus is on getting the App to a place where it is “a little helpful for everyone”, and then maybe a “fun way to get started, even.”
- Ultimately, Desktop will always be available, as some aspects don’t work on small screens.
- As such believes that the Mobile App, working in concert with the Desktop viewer will help SL grow.
- [Video: 51:42-52:25] When will SL Mobile be made available to all users?
On Puppetry
- [Note, whilst currently suspended, information on the Puppetry Project can be found in my Puppetry User Group meeting summaries].
- Did follow and contribute to the Puppetry Project, but felt it might have been too biased towards content creation use cases at the expense of communications use cases.
- Feels [as statement throughout the session] that LL needs to be more broadly focused on advances on communications capabilities such as accessibility, discovery, search, in concert with the more technical advances within the platform.
- Sees the above approach specifically relevant to puppetry, in moving the avatar’s body more capably, rather than continuing to rely purely on animations, and cites the way his avatar moves during the session as being something of a move in that direction.
- Certainly sees better ability to control avatar movement as a “hard” requirement for VR utilisation in SL, and puppeteering is a “big part” of that.
- Reiterates that currently, LL is not working on puppetry at present, as to develop an implement puppetry capabilities requires a better redevelopment / use of available resources.
- Goes on to note he’s aware this applies to a lot of SL capabilities that are “80%”, and he would like to get those to “100%”, and in this as CTO he is being more “hardcore” about better reflecting the majority of users LL is serving, not talking about features / capabilities until they are more rounded and ready.
On the User Experience
On Attracting Younger Users (e.g. from Roblox)
- In general, LL does not have, nor does it want, kids using Second Life.
- Youngsters from 16 and up are allowed to use the platform, but with restricted maturity settings [13-16 years can access the platform, but only for educational purposes (e.g. associated with a school) and whilst restricted to the region hosting their educational institution(s)].
- The worry is risk of harm for kids “on multiple levels”, such as financial exploitation, and if adults in a region do not want kids there, then there is a potential for harm to the kids.
- Hence why LL has not made attempts to make SL appealing to younger people – but are interested in hearing viewpoints on the matter from users.
On Users / Creators Helping to Grow Second Life
- Notes that we all have a role to play – as some already do through mentoring, etc.
- Further notes that if all those engaged in Second Life were to bring-in one new person to SL every 6 months and gives them the essential one-on-one help required to get them engaged in the platform, that would bring about a sustained growth for SL.
- As such, LL needs to design – with the help of users – the best means to enable this to happen.
- Deeply believes that there are people in the world right now who would greatly benefit from Second Life, and that world-wide they represent far more than the current user base.
On People Using SL at the Expense of their First Life Interactions (“SL Addiction”)
- Whether taking about social media, apps or gaming, there is tremendous danger of addiction. However, most of the time in talking about addiction, it is in terms of exploitative dopamine loops that keep you drawn into game or behaviour mechanism.
- SL is perhaps different in that the addictive element is having friends in-world, and those friendships are / can be as real and as meaningful as physical world friendships. Having friends in Second Life is not like having followers on Twitter/X.com; they are much closer and can be better.
- So in many cases, SL is providing a genuine reduction in loneliness and access to friends, and there is little else on-line which enables such friendship in the same way.
- LL therefore needs to be careful [to maintain this], and also need to be careful that they don’t cause harm.
On The Benefits of SL Use
- Reads a statement from a user as to how effective Second Life can be such a beneficial medium for helping people – notably those with disabilities, long-term illness, the elderly and similar – gain new opportunities for expression, enjoyment, finding friends, etc.
- Sees this statement as demonstration of the need for LL to “better and better and better” who the people using SL are, and whom LL are serving, and make changes based on that (e.g. in terms of accessibility – captions, sound, text size changes, etc.).
On Avatars Appearing Naked When Rezzing / in the MP (the “Boob Problem”)
- Acknowledges that he made a fundamental mistake in allowing the issue of avatars appearing naked when rezzing to pass unchecked in the early days of SL, rather than making it a “P(riority) 1” issue to fix.
- Feels it is still too easy for anyone to encounter Second Life content they may find offensive, and agrees that fixing this is something that needs to be properly considered; people should be able to come into Second Life from variety of use-cases, cultural backgrounds, etc., without being easily exposed to content that deeply offends them.
- However, this needs to be balanced again giving people the freedom to do what they want in acceptable environments (e.g. the privacy of their own homes).
- This balance is difficult to achieve, but also thinks it is “doable”, and users will hopefully see LL move forward over time in that regard, including further discussions on the subject.
On Second Life Payment Options
On the Use of Crypto with SL
- Believes that with the expansion of payment system / choices (including crypto, Zelle, etc.), LL should grow to accommodate more ways in which people can pay them for services.
- However, there are legal and regulatory complexities involved in doing this, particularly the purchase of Linden Dollars which need to be considered.
- States that crypto should be one of the options to be considered, if not by going “all in” (where there are considerable negatives), but rather as a further option for making payments to LL “makes a tonne of sense”.
On the Announced Suspension of Skrill as a Payment Option
- LL is aware that Skrill presents the only payment option available to many Second Life users.
- The ability to use Skrill will not be shut down until there is an available alternative.
On Second Life and Education
- Believes that education is an excellent use case for VR. If people can be educated in a virtual world using VR capably, it potentially reduces the on-going cost of education as a whole, whilst greatly expanding its accessibly to all.
- Caveats this with the need to understand VR devices, communication modality of use, non-verbal communication, in presenting education virtually.
- Believes there are areas in which Second Life is, and always has been, effective, and hopes that this will continue, including in making SL more generally accessible with the proper safeguards against viewing potentially inappropriate content.
Miscellaneous Questions
On Paying You Tube “Influencers” to “Promote” SL
- In terms of general marketing, LL is going to start efforts to market the platform for growth “soon” (and re-iterates the point of users brining friends into SL).
- States the company is very well equipped to handle marketing , and to do so in “lots of ways”.
- However, marketing into channels like You Tube, where the audience is fairly random, is not seen as effective for a platform like Second Life, because 95% of them have no interest in becoming avatars and enter virtual worlds.
- Has a personal belief that most people are uncomfortable with avatars due to their lack of facial expressions / ability to use non-verbal communication cues like body language, and that until this can be overcome, SL cannot be easily offered to “anyone”.
- As such, marketing needs to be focused, and welcomes idea from users on how such marketing might be focused onto the kinds of people who would be interested in using Second Life today.
On the Future of Mainland / Community Building
- Believes that SL is unique in the way it allows people to come together and develop communities in bot the Mainland and with private islands / estates.
- As such believes that matters like improving region crossings and governance should be prioritised.
- In terms of governance and community building, invites people to join Friends of Philip, where he’ll be discussing possible ideas.
On Governance and Account Banning
- States that given the nature of SL as an on-line community, banning should be a tool of last resort and should only happen under the most “desperate” of conditions, and believes that LL have done the “very best job” that they can in this regard.
- Given the benefits gained to many through the use of SL and the implications of banning, wonders if there are “judicial processes” that can make things work better / provide alternatives to banning.
- Has no answers to this [but has perhaps been asking questions relating to it], other than noting SL is a “precious thing” and the focus must be on those who hold it as precious, building their homes and communities, given to the matter of governance, where appropriate: “When someone has to leave Second Life, they should have to leave in broad agreement with their community.”
On Digital History and Preserving Builds / Locations in Second Life
- While it would be nice to preserve elements of Second Life as points in time and be able to re-visit them in that state (a kind of Wayback Machine for SL, allowing users to visit a location as it was on a given date / time), there is obviously expense involved in storing all the data regions to Second Life and regions within it.
- Does feel it would be good to come up with a “collective means” of “celebrating old builds” – and links this back to the idea of “governance” in terms of using the community through voting or other mechanisms as to what should be preserved in cases where the creators can not longer pay for them to be in-world.
- Uses this opportunity to tangentially discuss AI further, as noted in the section on AI above.
On Second Life and Twitch
- LL has tried on numerous occasions to get Second Life unbanned from Twitch (which has a high sensitivity to adult-themed content), and will continue to make the argument that SL should be allowed.
- Indicated that doing so may also require changes being made to the accessibility of Adult content in Second Life in a way that works for the majority of SL users and works for Twitch.
- In terms of Twitch s a “marketing tool” re-iterates the points that:
On Bringing Back the Second Life Community Convention (SLCC)
- [Background: the SLCC was run from 2005 through 2011 by AvaCon on behalf of Linden Lab and alternating between the west and east coasts of the USA. The events allowed Lindens and SL users come together and discuss the platform, make presentations, etc.]
- Would be interested in knowing how many SL users would be interested in participating in some form of physical world convention, and what form it should take, and suggesting his Friends of Philip group might be an initial place in which ideas might be put forward / discussed.
Closing Comments
- Is back at the Lab full time in the CTO role.
- Part of his focus is figuring out how to better communicate with everyone.
- Specifically as CTO is looking at what, how and why technologies changes should be made, and more broadly focused on strategy and product.
- Notes that of late, the comments from outside of SL have not been so much phrased in the past tense and in terms of acknowledging it is still going and available, and that this could be beneficial as LL starts marketing SL more.
- Expresses confidence that SL will start growing again, and reiterates that user can help in this.
- Does feel that in a time when technology and the Internet have done much to endanger democratic expression and the polarising of views, Second Life demonstrates there is a much more positive way for people to connect using technology, and how it can have a depolarising effect, allowing people who might not otherwise, become friends.
- In this, sees the opportunity to promote virtual worlds as beneficial environments for people to use, and which can be respected as such, and can help us face some of the broader challenges we face as a human society.
Videos of the Session
Linden Lab Official Video
Pantera’s Recording
Note this is set to start from the point at which the official video ends.
Inara Pey: Living in a Modemworld 