Day: April 25, 2025

2025 Week #17 Project Zero User Group Meeting

Posted on by Inara Pey
via Linden Lab
The following notes were taken from the Thursday, April 24th 2025 Project Zero User Group (PZUG) meeting.

  • They are based on my audio recording of the meeting + chat log.
  • They should not be taken as a full transcript of the meeting.
Table of Contents

Meeting Purpose

  • The Project Zero User Group provides a platform  for open discussion about Project Zero, the cloud-streamed version of the Second Life Viewer. Topics can range from sharing the goals for Project Zero, demoing the current experience, and gathering feedback to help shape the future of cloud access for Second Life.
  • These meetings are conducted (as a rule):
    • The second and fourth Thursday of every month at 13:00 noon SLT.
    • In Voice and text.
    • At the Hippotropolis Campsite.
  • Meetings are open to anyone with a concern / interest in the above topics, and form one of a series of regular / semi-regular User Group meetings conducted by Linden Lab.
  • Dates and times of all current meetings can be found on the Second Life Public Calendar, and descriptions of meetings are defined on the SL wiki.

Resources

Note: “Zero” or “Project Zero” in these summaries always refers to the SL official viewer running in a browser; “Firestorm Zero”, “FS0” or “FS Zero” always refers to the Firestorm viewer offering in a browser.

Avatar Picker

  • Released on April 24th, 2025.
  • Actually the first part of presenting Project Zero with a new UI, built using HTML / React, and first discussed by Philip Rosedale when Project Zero was initially launched.
  • Takes the form of a UI element that “pops in and out” of the left side of the browser window for the viewer.
  • Allows a user to select one of the avatars available within the new Avatar Welcome Pack, and the dress it in one of the available outfits.
  • The idea is to help new users get started with the kinds of avatars and avatar accessories more generally found in SL, thus grounding them more in the platform and the avatar ecosystem.

Project Zero and On-Boarding New Users

  • With the resumption of direct advertising of SL, the Lab has noted:
    • Only around 10% of users responding to an ad and who are directed through the sign-up process that requires them to download and install the viewer, actually get as far a logging-in.
    • However, the number responding to an ad and being directed to the sign-up process culminating in them being able to access SL directly through their browser using Project Zero, has a success rate of over 50% actually logging-in.
  • Data gathering on incoming new users responding to ads suggest that the majority are using computers that would not be able to run the viewer to its fullest visual extent; however, 90% of those users coming in via the Project Zero route are able to properly “see people and hear the birds”.
  • The next strategic step is seen as encouraging those new users to more fully engage with the platform, and two steps are being taken in this direction – the Avatar Picker noted above, and an upcoming “Destination Picker”, which is seen as an extension to the avatar onboarding process.

Project Zero “Destination Picker”

  • This is liable to be the next element for the new UI.
  • When available, it will allow (new) users to select one of the 12 destinations, in a similar manner to the Go button seen on the web account registration  / join pages.
  • The desire being to point them towards locations and experiences that bring home the value of Second Life, and which encourage them to continue to log-in to the platform.
  • In this it is recognised that:
    • Simply listing a plethora of destinations which may or may not have active use risks losing incoming new users on the basis if they get sent to places where there is no engagement with others, they simply will not stay.
    • Similarly, just sending people to “crowded” places (clubs, shopping areas, etc.), is not necessarily a good idea, and people within those environments may not be amenable to answering questions / offering assistance. etc.
    • People are much more likely to stay if they find people who are friendly, willing to offer help, point them towards community resources, etc.
  • As such, the destinations placed in the Picker are going to be curated (and possibly rotated), based on how well they assist in helping new users feel “part” of SL.

Additional Notes on Destinations / On-boarding

  • Selections for inclusion are liable to be along lines that reflect the typical reasons people give for signing-up to SL – such as an interest in art, a desire to experience live music, etc.
    • In this regard, incoming new users are already being “round robined” to a number of potential starting points: the Welcome Hub, Gateways such as Firestorm’s gateway, experience-oriented hub like MadPea, etc.
    • However, the Lab wants to move this on to the users themselves being able to make a choice as to where they go on logging-in.
  • A new channel will be provided to those managing the selected destinations, which will provide them with data such as: numbers of new users returning for a further session, number of users going to no upgrade to a subscription tier, and other data that can help illustrate the success of a location in supporting new users, and possible highlight areas for possible optimisation.
  • With regards to the success of destinations used within the on-boarding of new users over the year, Philip Rosedale noted the following:
Over all these years, when we have looked at the statistics for destinations for areas as different as those I’ve mentioned – the Welcome Hub, the Adventure Island, the Firestorm Welcome Island, the MadPea games, for example – fascinatingly enough, we see that the success at retaining new users is virtually identical for all of those destinations; and overall, is of course very poor. 
So its interesting to not that we’re not even close, it would seem, on what the right on-boarding experience is; because all of the ones we have tried are equally unsuccessful. 

– Philip Rosedale

New Users and a Sandbox

  • Sntax floated the idea of offering incoming users the opportunity to go to a specific sandbox environment were they could join other users and new users in collaborative building / learning to build.
  • Active Worlds used to have something similar for its incoming new users.
  • Responses to this at the meeting were mixed.
    • Positives: offers the opportunity for collaborative work using the built-in tools; allows experienced 3D content creators new to SL experiment with importing mesh; could become an informative learning “playground”.
    • Negatives: built-in tools for content creation are both complex and have not seen any real TLC in years; primitives fall well short of more refined meshes; the potential for griefing.
  • This lead to a more general discussion on engaging new users, opportunities for engaging them in activities and how to direct them (e.g. offering those wanting to use Voice to “Voice friendly” locations; offering experiences such as games, sailing, flying, etc.

Notes on Availability

  • Existing users can also use the Avatar Picker, however:
    • It is only available on Project Zero.
    • Project Zero is geared towards incoming new users, so existing users might find it difficult to obtain a slot when trying to log-in via Zero.
  • Part of the reason for this is the Lab feels the capability needs to mature before becoming more widely available to existing users.
  • That said, if people would like to use Zero because it would potential offer a better experience than a viewer running locally on their computer, should IM Sntax Linden stating why they want to use Zero and what, specifically, they would use it for and the perceived benefits. Such use cases might then help speed the development of the capability.
  • Passes for Firestorm Zero are currently not available.

Date of Next Meeting

April 2025 SL Mobile UG meeting summary: avatar updates

Posted on by Inara Pey
Campwich Forest grounds: location for the Monthly Mobile User Group (MMUG)
The following notes were taken from the Thursday, April 24th 2025 Monthly Mobile User Group (MMUG) meeting. These notes should not be taken as a full transcript of the meeting, which was largely held in Voice, but rather a summary of the key topics discussed. The meeting was recorded by Pantera, and her video is embedded at the end of this summary – my thanks, as always to her in providing it.
Table of Contents

Meeting Purpose

  • The Mobile User Group provides a platform to share insights on recent mobile updates and upcoming features, and to receive feedback directly from users.
  • These meetings are conducted (as a rule):
    • The last Thursday of every month at 12:00 noon SLT.
    • In Voice and text.
    • At Campwich Forest.
  • Meetings are open to anyone with a concern / interest in the above topics, and form one of a series of regular / semi-regular User Group meetings conducted by Linden Lab.
  • Dates and times of all current meetings can be found on the Second Life Public Calendar, and descriptions of meetings are defined on the SL wiki.

Resources

Release Updates and “Coming Soon”

[Video: 2:57-8:46]

Version: 2025.3.548 (Android); 0.5.534 (iOS)

  • Issue: Not receiving items! – inventory offers received when using Mobile failing to appear in Inventory once logged-in on the Desktop viewer. This has now been fixed.
  •  Dash for Cash has proven popular, and has seen a small update in that it now references avatars by name.

“Coming Soon”

  • If you teleport whilst in the Lobby, a teleport pop-up will be displayed in addition to the teleport progress bar at the top of the Lobby screen.
  • Settings clean-up:
    • The Max Avatars drop-down is due to move from the Developer tools list (Menu → Settings → </> Developer Tools) up to the main Settings menu.
    • Group notifications are to become more granular, allowing notifications for specific groups to be turned on / off.
An upcoming change will see the Max Avatars setting move from the Developer Tools to the main Settings screen (note: the above is for illustration only; final update may appear differently).
  • Initial groundwork so that people can access the Lobby feature without their avatars having to be physically in-world:
    • This will see the the Sign Out button move from the Menu up to the Profile bar, and a new button introduced to the Menu: Return to Lobby.
    • When implemented, avatars will still be rendered in-world and seen as on-line, as this is only the groundwork.  However, it is hoped that things will progress over the next few months to reach a point where using the Lobby, as noted, does not require the avatar to be present in-world.
  • Additional quality of life updates are also targeting the May update, but the meeting was considered “a little too early” to discuss them.

Avatar Update

[Video: 9:27-43:00]

  • The core of the meeting was a presentation from Adam Sinewave on some of the challenges involved in rendering avatars on SL Mobile, the approach taken, status to date and work that should be appearing in upcoming releases.
  • This presentation took the form of a slide show with comments from Adam, and I’ve embedded a video of it below, with a concatenated summary of Adam’s comments. to see the latter in full, please watch the video directly in You Tube and click the transcript button in the video’s description area.

  • SL Mobile is a fully ground-up rebuild of Second Life for Mobile devices (utilising the Unity engine), utilising a very different architecture compared to the Desktop Viewer and with no common code, in order to work within the constraints of most Mobile devices.
  • This is particularly evident in the case of avatar rendering, where the different approaches to avatar skeletons as substantial:
    • The SL system is largely “monolithic” (for want of a better term): a single skeleton per avatar containing multiple bone sets, all capable of being positioned be shape, deformer animation, with no deterministic (or even an entirely random) approach to the ordering / priority of such changes.
    • The Unity system is more flexible and robust, but as a result can bring rendering quirks and issues hidden by the SL system into sharp relief.
  • Testing such avatar for issues and the effectiveness of fixes applied (regression testing) has until recently been manually-intensive requiring eye-on testing for each an every issue / fix. However, time has been spent building an in-house testing / regression system to automate a lot of this work, greatly speeding the process of issue identification, fixing and testing.
  • Outside of the above, there are still areas of work associated with avatars (some of which impact in-world objects as well) still to be address, and doing so will take time. These include at the time of the video:
    • “Not Working”: Animesh; avatar lighting; transparency on avatars (alpha layers); PBR materials rendering. All of these will be addressed, but the time frame is liable to be longer-term and the priority of work subject to change.
    • Partially working: Flexi wearables (partially supported, but in need of improvement); system eyes (positioned based on a “average” placement within the skull and which requires further improvement).
  • Silhouetting (avatars appearing transparent in the Mobile app): this is viewed as overly-aggressive, but has been necessary to ensure avatars only render when “complete”, so as to avoid any nudity that might collide with Apple’s rules on such. Unfortunately, this exposes a number of areas where avatar loading can fail and the avatar becoming such as a silhouette. Work is progressing on addressing these issues, but it will require a cycle of multiple updates.
  • A look at (at the time of the meeting) some of of the  upcoming avatar fixes improvements – including expanding the avatar test suite and, for users: improvements to resource loading and texture handling, allowing more to be seen and enabling avatars to be loaded / unloaded as they enter / leave view.
  • It was noted that much of this work has yet to reach the Mobile app (Alpha or Beta), be will be doing so in upcoming releases.

In Brief

Please refer to the video for details on the following and other questions which may have had a simple “yes” or “in progress” reply.

  • [Video: 45:56-47:10] A question on whether mesh creators simply using the default right-hand attachment point of avatar items can cause issues with losing items or how alpha blends work when compared to Desktop.
    • In terms of alpha blends, Mobile uses a different approach to layering (order-independent transparency using Z-depth rather than attachment order), such issues of layer ordering doesn’t apply.
    • It’s acknowledged that this might not quite match what creators are expecting, but it allow for a more efficient use of resources.
  • [Video: 47:38-48:48] SL and Unity handle rotation differently.
    • SL’s coordinates are based on right-handed rotation with the Z axis as up; Unity uses left-handed rotation with the Y axis as Up.  Thus, a translation system between the two is required, which can lead to issues.
    • Further complications can be introduced as a result of animations using rotation.
    • Fixes have been developed to address the more noticeable issues, which will be appearing in the next “update or two”.
  • [Video: 49:37-50:44] Inventory access through Mobile is on the roadmap. However, it is a very large, resource-intensive project with a lot of impact.
    • As such, as, when and how it is tackled is a matter of strategic consideration alongside other priorities.
    • Currently, it is not something that has seen any “substantial” work carried out.
  • [Video: 50:52-50:54 (text]  Mobile app hanging with “Not Responding” and the options to Close App or Wait:
    • The workaround for this at present is to go to the Developer Tools (Menu → Settings → </> Developer Tools), locate the Max Memory Limit drop-down and reduce the amount of memory (e.g. to 30% or 25%).
    • Further work has been made to general performance, which should be going into upcoming releases. As such, reports on the issue would be appreciated if it continues to manifest after these are available.
  • [Video: 51:01-52:53] Has anything been learnt from Mobile (thus far) that can be used to improve the Desktop experience?
    • Suggestions have been passed to the Desktop viewer team from Mobile.
    • There is a desire to unify experiences between the viewer and Mobile where possible (e.g. such as unifying chat history) and which may require changes to the viewer as well as updates to Mobile. However when such work will be carried out was unclear at the time of the meeting.
    • Outside of user-facing work, the avatar testing tool is something potentially of interest to the Desktop team as well.
  • There is an issue with certain fonts in name tags not displaying correctly on Mobile. This is known and will be investigated.

Date of Next Meeting