Tag: TPVD / Open Source Meetings 2025

The following notes were taken from my chat transcript + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, August 29th, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they are generally conducted in text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Default viewer 2025.06 7.2.1.17108480561 – August 29 – NEW.
  • Inventory Favourites System, plus assorted new features.
  • Improvements to avatar system; camera and movement; chat; voice; content creation tools.
  • Mesh uploader updates.
  • Text & UI polish.
  • Fixes for Environment and Rendering; stability and crashes; UI.
  • System improvements.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha (Aditi only), version 7.1.12.14888088240, May 13 –  No Change.

Viewer 2025.07

• Currently in development.
• Will include “proper Discord support” for those with a Discord account  – further clarification to follow as the viewer is developed; and possibly Apple Silicon support.

In Brief

• Meeting update: the TPVD and Open-Source Developer meeting will be merging. The combined meeting will be held once every two weeks, and utilise the TPVD meeting time slot and location. This merge comes into effect on Friday, September 12th, 2025.
• Code merge policy update:
  • This is intended to better align merging release branches into develop with git flow.
  • LL should now merge code in a given release branch on a fairly regular basis moving forward – so no more waiting for things to go into main before merging up into develop, and moving forward, the Develop branch should always have the latest code LL intends to release in the near future.
  • The latest release code will always be in the main branch.
  • Project branches are still TBD on how they will be handled, as there are often things that need a lot more work before they’re ready for general consumption.
• The latest version of Autobuild defaults to 64 bit, allowing viewer compilers to remove AUTOBUILD_ADDRSIZE from their build environments.
• User Joe Magarac (animats) has been working on viewer-side “infinite draw distance” using mesh / sculpt imposters for surrounding region (e.g. one region, 4 region, 16 region, 64 region, etc., – currently only terrain), with each imposter having its own UUID and an a Land Impact of 1 LI.
  • This work is in test within his own Sharpview viewer (not on general release), and will be made available to other viewers.
  • Geenz Linden has been following the work, and has an alternate view on achieving the same result (e.g. having the simulator specify a UUID message to an imposter object which any viewer can then just load and display as required, rather than having everything driven from the viewer), and has suggested the work could benefit for a more collaborative approach.
  • This resulted in a general discussion on project status, possible direction, options for imposter creation, possible issues of content protection if imposters include content information (e.g. buildings), etc, which ran through most of the meeting. Please refer to the video for details.

Next Meeting

• Friday, September 12th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre (combining with the Open-Source Developer meeting, per the above notes).

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.

The following notes were taken from my chat transcript + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, August 1st, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they are generally conducted in text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Default viewer 7.1.15.15596336374 promoted June 12 – No Change.
• Second Life Project glTF Mesh Import (2025.05 Beta) 7.2.0.16356654553 July 23 – New.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha (Aditi only), version 7.1.12.14888088240, May 13 –  No Change.

Code Contributions “Shovel List”

• Signal Linden has produced a “shovel list” of code contributions the Lab are seeking from open-source developers.
• Two high-value items identified in the list are:
  • A RFP for replacing Autobuild in the viewer build process.
  • A RFP for replacing the Havok convex hull decomposition mechanism with an open-source equivalent.
• The former RFP is as removing Autobuild as a significant barrier / burden to those trying to learn how to the build the viewer. Suggestions for preplacement include pure Cmake, or using Vcpkg or Conan for dependency management, or vendor dependencies in the repo, etc.
  • Related to this, Brad Linden has started an experimental branch simplifying LL development environment. In is not ready for general use, but the idea is that the Build Instructions in the README should “just work” and not require having Autobuild installed or set up properly ahead of time. The is part of on-going work to overhaul the viewer build process.
• The latter RFP above is part of the Lab’s aim to remove the Havok sub-library from the viewer, which also includes a means to still visualise the navmesh.
• The above sparked a short conversation on the viewer build process.

Experimental Rewards / Bounty System

• LL has launched an experiment rewards programme offering monetary rewards against certain Github issues.
• Powered by Opire, the programme is explained here.
• These rewards are not meant to replace regular open source development, but rather to drive contributions on items LL have been unable to get much traction on.

In Brief

•  LL has also open sourced the LSL definitions project, the authoritative definition of LSL library functions, types, etc. It is used to perform codegen in the server, building out the bindings for LSL and SLua, and also drives the LSL editor tooltips.
• PR Appearance fixes #3492 is still requiring attention from linden Lab, and is currently stalling the work on getting RLV into the official viewer. 
• Camera Constraints Bug (below -0 metre altitude) has been filed. This affects all v7 viewers, and is under investigation.

Next Meeting

• Friday, August 29th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre.

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.

The following notes were taken from my chat transcript + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, June 6th, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they are generally conducted in text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Official Viewer: 2025.04 – 7.1.14.15192634334, issued May 25, promoted May 28 – NEW.
  • Chat Mentions (Early Support): Type @ then pick a name. To follow: audible alerts and highlight colour pickers.  This does not support generic mentions such as @everyone or @here.
  • My Outfits subfolders: now supports the use of subfolders.
  • Build Floater improvements: increase to scale boundaries; Physics Material Type now updates when selecting linked objects; Repeats per Meter value no longer incorrect for non-uniform sized objects.
  • Hover height: the minimum/maximum is now +/- 3 meters.
  • Snapshot floater: L$ balances can be hidden independently of the rest of the UI.
  • Preference Search bar: general usability and readability improvements.
  • Refer to the release notes for full updates and fixes.
• Second Life Project glTF Mesh Import, version 7.1.14.15361077240 June 2 – NEW.
  • This is an early Alpha release with some of the rough edges and already resolved many bugs and crashes, although more are to be found, together with general feedback from the community. Please read the release notes if you intend to test this viewer.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha (Aditi only), version 7.1.12.14888088240, May 13 –  No Change.

glTF Mesh Uploader

• The GLTF Mesh Uploader will be the next viewer release, although it doesn’t as yet have a new-format version number.
• It is now available on the Alternate Viewers Page (and the version current at the time of writing is linked-to above).
• The initial release is regarded as a “pretty rough cut”, with fixes already streaming into the code branch such that there is likely to be an update within the week.
  • Those trying the initial release should be aware that rigged mesh import in particular is in an “iffy state” for some of the more complex avatars.
• As the next planned release, it will be merged-up to the Develop branch shortly – so if anyone would like to get some PRs in now would be a really good time to do that.

Test Items

Linden Lab is seeking content content creators who would be willing to contribute items for testing. Specifically, the Lab is seeking:

• Rigged meshes only – unrigged content is not required at this time.
• Everything from the most basic avatar mesh to complex bento, fitted, etc. meshes, clothing and Animesh is welcome.
  • However, avatars with onion layers should not be submitted. If possible, merge such avatars into a singular mesh with rigging in order to help simplify the Lab’s debugging work.
• Content should be supplied in both glTF and COLLADA.DAE formats, to allow for A/B testing.
• Content files should be sent to gltf@lindenlab.com.

glTF Uploader “Phase 2”

• A “reunification” of the various asset import flows, focused on under-the-hood work with the import pipeline.
  • It used to be that assets like sounds, animations, images, etc., were uploaded through a single API when uploaded, but since the arrival of mesh, new asset upload types have diverged from the “common” flow to use their own.
• The idea now is to provide a single API to get things from a creator’s computer and in-world to simplify the upload process.
• According the CCUG meeting, this work will include an improved preview capability, providing more representative of what creators can expect to see under a set of EEP parameters, etc.
  • The ability to preview items in-world on Agni (the main grid) prior to upload will not be provided. However, there is still Aditi (the beta grid) for this.
• It is also hoped that the import flow can be made easier to understand for existing and new content creators (e.g. providing a better preview; having things laid out in a way that makes potential problems more obvious, etc.).

In Brief

• Switching away from OpenGL: this has not been mentioned for a while, and currently, it looks like LL is going to use an existing API abstraction, so as to allow Apple Metal to be targeted as well. The API mentioned was “something based off of NVIDIA’s Slang API” – with a note that hopes of getting “something potato friendly” is low.
  • However, there has been no firm decision, and alternatives were suggested in the meeting, so things are still up in the air.
• Signal Linden requested feedback on the idea of deprecating and removing Navmesh characters / llCreateCharacter (i.e. Pathfinding).

I don’t state the idea lightly, and I understand its low adoption is partially due to a complex and buggy implementation. However, I pulled some data and it appears we have 1,900 navmesh characters across the entire grid. Half of those are ours (Think LL experiences.) There are 6 user-owned regions with more than 10 characters… This is very low usage. I haven’t seen any major merchants release notable content with the system due to its unreliability: but please correct me if I’m wrong.

– Signal Linden

• • Those at the meeting didn’t object to the idea.
  • An alternate approach (“more nuanced” as Signal Linden referred to it, once raised) suggested was to leave server-side the functionality in place and just drop the viewer side, until such time as new ways to handle Pathfinding could be developed.
  • Signal repeated that there are benefits (Pathfinding accounts for a lot of simulator-side code), but that not decision has been made as yet, he is seeking feedback.
  • The subject of Havok in the viewer was raised (used for both Pathfinding and mesh decomposition), with suggestions to replace Havok with the open source HACD library or VHACD (or similar newer implementation), were this to be done.
  • A suggestion was made for TPV developers to bring a HACD / VHACD to the viewer as a code contribution.
• The above lead to a wider discussion on textures (slightly sidetracked by a complaint over the cost of 2K texture uploads for non-Premium + members), and related issues of texture loads on GPUs with limited VRAM,  texture crushing, etc., which continued through the latter part of the meeting.

Next Meeting

• Friday, July 4th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre – but check the SL Public Calendar for possible changes.

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.

The following notes were taken from my chat transcript + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, May 9th, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they are generally conducted in text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Default viewer: 2025.03 7.1.13.14343205944, issued April 9th and promoted April 15th.
  • New UI element for water exclusion surfaces: Build / Edit floater → Texture Tab → Hide Water checkbox.
  • The maximum amount of Reflection Probes can now be adjusted to better accommodate low VRAM scenarios.
    • Values will be set automatically depending on your chosen graphics quality. OR
    • Use Preferences → Graphics →  Advanced Settings →  Max. Reflection Probes to manually set.
  • An issue with being unable to see Sky Altitude values in the Region/Estate window has now been resolved.
  • Preferences → Graphics → Max. # of Non-Imposters has been renamed Max. # of Animated Avatars for clarity.
  • Bug and performance fixes and memory optimisations.
• Release Candidate: 2025.04 – 7.1.14.14742193597, May 2nd – see below.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha, version 7.1.12.14175675593, April 2nd.
  • Will only work on Aditi. Blog post: Lab officially announces Luau Alpha testing.

Release Candidate 2025.04

• Currently includes the following new features and updates:
  • Chat Mentions (Early Support): Type @ then pick a name. To follow: audible alerts and highlight colour pickers (New).
    • This does not support generic mentions such as @everyone or @here.
  • My Outfits subfolders: supports for the use of subfolders (new).
  • Build Floater improvements: increase to scale boundaries; Physics Material Type now updates when selecting linked objects; Repeats per Meter value no longer incorrect for non-uniform sized objects
  • Hover height: the minimum/maximum is now +/- 3 meters.
  • Snapshot floater: L$ balances can be hidden independently of the rest of the UI.
  • Preference Search bar: general usability and readability improvements.
• Bug fixes as listed in the release notes (link above).

glTF Mesh Uploader

• Originally planned for inclusion on the 2025.04 RC, this now looks as if it will be initially shipped as a project viewer.

2025.05 RC Viewer

• This is being primed to contain the backporting of up fixes and updates originally intended for 2024’s Maintenance C RC. Details to follow as they are made available.

In Brief

• Meeting format:
  • Following the previous TPVD meeting being held in local chat, the decision has been made to continue in chat only.
  • Both the TPVD meeting and the Open Source Development meeting now look on track to be combined into a single, text-only meeting, date and time going forward TBA.
• Chromium Embedded Framework (CEF) Updates: used for the likes of media handling / web page presentation within the viewer, the current version of CEF is increasingly out-of-date. How to update it has been a subject of internal discussions at the Lab, with Geenz Linden noting:

Current line of thinking is just have one CEF instance – use CEF’s tab mechanism. Seems to be the preferred solution by CEF as well for cookie management. It’s more work, but it’s also generally what seems to be the “preferred” route from CEF land. 

Now that being said.. Depending on when we can get that work scheduled (we have _a lot_ on our plates right now), we may be open to a stop gap with that work on the docket in the future. We want to do this by the book as best as we can, I want to be clear about that. We are well aware of how out of date CEF is in the viewer, and it is something we want to fix. We’re still figuring out the path to do so – do we have a stop gap for now with a firm commitment to a proper upgrade later? Do we just skip to upgrade? We’re still discussing it.

• • This discussion revolved around a suggested approach to update used within the Cool VL Viewer and submitted to (and rejected by) LL. Further discussions on both the Lab’s thinking on the CEF tab mechanism and a possible discussion on interim options such as the Cool VL Viewer approach.
• Terrain texture blending: there can be a noticeable difference is results when trying to blend terrain textures when seen on viewers running on different operating systems.
  • See: Terrain blends are different for different users (raised April 25th, 2025, and closed on May 1st (“expected behaviour”) for a description of the issue.
  • See: Terrain Texture Blending Consistency for one suggested solution and further discussion.
  • The issue appears to be the manner in which the Windows viewer applies a randomiser for blend textures between different elevations compared to Mac OS / Linux (see: SL Wiki : Creating Terrain Textures – Elevation Ranges).
  • This discussion became mixed with one concerning issues with PBR mirrors yielding different results / failing to work at log-in (notably under Windows), and the discussion of potential fixes, although the root cause seems to be similar in nature.
  •  It terms of any “fix” for terrain blending issues, the problem is that any adjustment made to the calculations could end up impacting some percentage of users in some way.
  • LL’s view (at the meeting) was to lean towards keeping the calculations used by Windows untouched, and to try to adjust Linux / MacOS to match; the reasoning for this is that as around 90% of the user base is running Windows (and potentially landscaping in Windows), they are seeing things “correctly”.
  • This led to something of a debate along the lines of the “needs of the many”; the question of ROI on fixes of one types or another (time to implement, overall impact, etc.).
  • This discussion took up much of the latter half of the meeting, but no firm view on any likely “fix” or time-frame at this point.

Next Meeting

• Friday, June 6th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre – but check the SL Public Calendar for possible changes.

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.

The following notes were taken from my chat transcript + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, April 11th, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they are generally conducted in a mix of Voice and text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Default viewer: 7.1.12.13550888671, formerly the ForeverFPS, dated March 1, 2025, promoted March 5th.
  • Numerous crash and performance fixes.
  • Water exclusion surfaces.
  • Water improvements.
• Second Life Release Candidate: 2025.03 7.1.13.14343205944, April 9th, 2025.
  • Will only work on Aditi, within the following regions: [Luau Yardang], [Luau Tombolo], [Luau Mesa] and [Luau Tideland].
  • See below for more.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha, version 7.1.12.13907344519, April 2nd.
  • Will only work on Aditi. Blog post: Lab officially announces Luau Alpha testing.

Upcoming Viewers

• The 2025.03 RC is now in “crash fixes only” mode, and LL are still hoping to get it promoted to de facto release status “soon”.
• Due to the focus on 2025.03, the 2025.04 viewer update is still in development, but its appearance as an RC viewer is likely to be delayed. As a re-cap: this viewer will include:
  • Hover height improvements.
  • The ability to have sub-folders within the Outfits system folder.
  • The introduction of the glTF mesh importer.
• As a reminder, as as per recent CCUG meetings the glTF mesh importer:
  • Is purely for glTF format mesh models – it is not the full glTF scene importer that had been in development.
  • Will initially operate pretty much as per the current COLLADA .DAE importer (e.g. anything that can be done with that importer can be done with glTF mesh imports).
  • Is only a first cut with glTF imports, and will be enhanced over time.
  • Is not a replacement for COLLADA .DAE support – LL hope to continue to support COLLADA alongside glTF for as long as is realistically feasible.
• 2024.03 might additionally include Inventory Favourites and foundational work on RLVa inclusion. However, both of these might simple to the 2025.05 viewer.

In Brief

• This meeting was held entirely in text as an experiment as decisions are made on the future of both the TPV Developer meeting (generally held in Voice) and the Open Source Development meeting (held in text), and potentially combining them.
• The official Second Life Discord Channel now has a TPV role / channel to go alongside the opensource role / channel.
  • In order for someone to be eligible for the TPV role, they must be a part of a viewer team that is in the TPV programme and gain confirmation from LL to access the channel.
• There is to be a “renewed push” to get the Voice service switched over to WebRTC across all simulators – although there are remaining bugs to be resolved before that happens, together with a back-end update required to allow for better service scaling.
  • The switch-over will follow the simulator update schedule: remaining updates will be deployed to RC channels first (with the switch from Vivox to WebRTC), then to the Main SLS channel.
• The SLua alpha testing on Aditi has progressed well, and LL are now working towards a follow-up beta test.
• The work on Linux support has been intentionally removed from the viewer repositories for the time being, while LL reviews Linux and determine its overall maintainability.

Next Meeting

• Friday, May 9th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre.

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.

The following notes were taken from my audio recording + the video recording by Pantera (embedded at the end of this summary) of the Third-Party Developer meeting (TPVD) held on Friday, March 14th, 2025. My thanks to Pantera as always for providing it.

Meeting Purpose

• The TPV Developer meeting provides an opportunity for discussion about the development of, and features for, the Second Life viewer, and for Linden Lab viewer developers and third-party viewer (TPV) / open-source code contributors to discuss general viewer development. This meeting is held once a month on a Friday, at 13:00 SLT at the Hippotropolis Theatre.
• Dates and times are recorded in the SL Public Calendar, and they re conducted in a mix of Voice and text chat.
• The notes herein are a summary of topics discussed and are not intended to be a full transcript of the meeting.

Official Viewers

• Default viewer: 7.1.12.13550888671, formerly the ForeverFPS, dated March 1, 2025, promoted March 5th – NEW.
  • Numerous crash and performance fixes.
  • Water exclusion surfaces.
  • Water improvements.
• Second Life Project Lua Editor Alpha, version 7.1.12.13858460198, March 14th, 2025 – NEW.
  • Will only work on Aditi, within the following regions: [Luau Yardang], [Luau Tombolo], [Luau Mesa] and [Luau Tideland].
  • See below for more.

Viewer Releases, Cadence and Open Source Contributions

• As previously noted in these pages, viewer releases are changing:
  • The viewer version numbering will be changed to reflect the year / month of release, so 2025.03 (March 2025) will be the next viewer in the pipe, followed by 2025.04 (April 2025).
  • The new viewer numbering may not initially be reflected in installer / viewer About floater, but it is something Signal Linden would like to see achieve – and maybe even back in the viewer’s top bar.
  • The will be a move towards a monthly release cadence, although during the TPV meeting, Signal Linden indicated it might be every other month at times.
• Overall the viewer release cadence is intended to better match the sever updates cadence, so that simulator updates with require viewer changes will not have to wait so long for those changes to appear in the release viewer.
• In line with all of the above, Geenz Linden has put forward a proposal for revamping the open source programme and making it more responsive, inviting input from TPV and open source developers. This will likely include a new Contribution Agreement.

SLua Alpha Testing

• SLua (Slew-ah, or SL Lua) is the name given to the server-side implementation of Lua as a replacement for Mono as the compiled scripting language for Second Life.
• The alpha is now available on Aditi.
• Please refer to the official blog post and (if you prefer) my blog post for more.
• At the TPVD meeting, Signal Linden indicated that LL is considering open-sourcing the SLua virtual machine, once it is ready.

In Brief

• It is likely that the open Source Developer meeting and the TPVD meeting will be merged, with one (or both) changing time (and frequency?) as a result.
• With new simulator certificates coming in, it was recommended that older viewer versions on Aditi to ensure they can still access SL on simulators running with the new certificates. These Aditi simulators are:
  • Cloud Sandbox 1-4.
  • All of the Blake Sea regions.
  • Bonifacio.
• The viewer-side implementation of Luau (as distinct from the SLua project) is described as being in a “project branch and liable to stay that way for now”, with no short-term plans for rolling it out.
• Still no firm date on when the Vivox Voice service will be switched off in favour of WebRTC.

Next Meeting

• Friday, April 11th, 2025 at the Hippotropolis Theatre.

† The header images included in these summaries are not intended to represent anything discussed at the meetings; they are simply here to avoid a repeated image of a gathering of people every week. They are taken from my list of region visits, with a link to the post for those interested.